Any reason to keep going? (for me, not in general)


mclien

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OK, first I really do love this project and all the ideas behind it. That's why I supported it quite a bit (the pixelwall, the rings, 2 pre-pre orders). I also know, that my use case is not the one for most of you.
So what was my intention/use case for the pyra?
Basically: Not needing a small Notebook for my daily traveling. You know: a bit of music on the way, maybe write a bit of text (or sms, yeah, I'm old school), maybe using a free encrypting messenger etc. And then at every place I have a keyboard and a monitor at hand use it as an office desktop (yes I know, I might still need an extra one for CAD stuff.
So the case for me is: non of my uses is covered...
- audio (not working, at leas cabled, which is my preferred)
- hdmi out, not working (not even mentioning 2 screen setup)
Yes It seems "only" 2 points, but that are the ones that are basic for all the rest.

So, I'm still at "dust collecting" device.

Do not misunderstand me: I'm not angry nor do I want to bash anyone. It it just disappointing.
As I have quite some other stuff to care about, I don't see much options besides selling my 2 Pyras. I'm only unsure what's the proper way to do it, lacking a selling section.
 
Well, the HDMI needs quite some work, but whe are on a too early stage that someone would have time to work on it..

I allready made a Test, , when you boot the Pyra whit HDMI Out Connectet, you have the Boot Screen on the TV, but at some point, its stops in a Shell, because the Tiler Feature of the OMAP Kicks in but cant make anything as its expects the Pyra Screen..

So if someone would work on a Scrippt that denableds the Tiler, then it might work, but as whe only have one HDMI Port, maybe only for one TV..
But TV Out was also something that gots quite late to the Pandora..

For Audio: I dont have the right Recipe for the Alsa Setup, yesterday when i test some GBA Games, the Pyra had the Audio Issue when it was just on Desktop, whit the Speakers off,

Maybe someone could post a Screenshot whit the Settings you need to avoid the Audio Issue, ...

Yes i use most of the Time Bluetooth, so my Settings ditnt matter that much as the Audio Issue is only on Cable or Speakers, because the Bluetooth Headphones are "A Soundcard" in ALSA

So dont trow the Gun in the Hay Stash, i believe that the Pyra just needs to mature a bit more like "WINE"..
These are the first 15 Months, after the first got theyre Pyra, so quite early..
 
I understand your feelings, to me there is a bit of issues that need to be resolved for it to be a fully functional handheld computer. Audio system is one of the big issues, along with HDMI output and several other things. There is a mountain of things to get done to do this and currently there are only a few people sifting through the pebbles.

The good is it's a good platform, LCD is great, keyboard is nice to type on, the Wifi works as it should and not snail paced like the Pandora. If we can solve the rest of the issues it will be a great platform. However the fixes may not come at the pace many hoped for... It may come down to finding another SoC for a new CPU board, but that will likely take some time too...
 
I understand your feelings, to me there is a bit of issues that need to be resolved for it to be a fully functional handheld computer. Audio system is one of the big issues, along with HDMI output and several other things. There is a mountain of things to get done to do this and currently there are only a few people sifting through the pebbles.

The good is it's a good platform, LCD is great, keyboard is nice to type on, the Wifi works as it should and not snail paced like the Pandora. If we can solve the rest of the issues it will be a great platform. However the fixes may not come at the pace many hoped for... It may come down to finding another SoC for a new CPU board, but that will likely take some time too...
The problem (at least for me and might be me not collecting all the information) is, all was running on the devboard and it looked like it was "just" (yeah, I know) a matter of putting that on the Pyra PCBs.
As for the ScO: Last sparc of hope I got these days: RiscV.

But then there is the problem, that my eyesight is weakening (as it does for old guys), which makes the XTerm nearly not usable (at least in Default settings).

So maybe keeping one Pyra in the hope of a RiscV board or similar? I think about that.
So still one (#175 of prepre order) available.
 
Yes i do fully understand you.

- I wanted to make Videos for my Youtube Account with my "only for this Reason" bought a HDMI Video Grabber.
- OpenGL,Box86 and Wine "are not best Friends" as @ptitSeb said.
- The Audio is little Buggy too because it use too much CPU Power
- Gl4es work work with many Things but there are still some important Errors which i maybe Post in
- the Pyra will get good warm in your Hands with fully CPU Load

The Thing where i was mostly dissapointed...is the still not Functional HDMI Port because that Omap5 Tiler seem to not work right.
So no Desktop use and no HDMI Video Recording for my Youtube Account.

But wait?
Why i bought a second Pyra then?
- i think that HDMI Problems are solved in the Future
- i hope for an Android System on SD Card in the Future
- i hope for an Upgrade of the CPU to play Playstation2 in the Future

..mostly Software Sided Problems will be solved and then you will have a fully Linux OS.

When Telegram Messenger is out for the Pyra then she will be more heavily used too.

It is everytime a big Fun to get Software running on the Pyra which no One has seen before on her.

Last Evening i got Mario Sound Composer fluid working.,,very Funny.

Daggerfall United is not working yet but maybe when i compile a new Dosbox.
And Star Trek Elite Force is not running too yet..because EGL Errors.

The Pyra is like a Challange which Software will you get to Run on there.

I love that Feeling after a finaly successfully compiling to get more and more running.

And when the HDMI Port ist finaly working then i can begin to make Videos for my second Pyra only Youtube Account.

The Software is like an realy beta Stage and many Things have to be fix.

Some Users do still working for better Cooling Solutions too and maybe we get a "simple to Upgrade" better Cooling in the Dragonbox Shop when a better Sollution is Found.

You can Mod the Pyra as you Like and that is a good Point too.

I still hope for more Devs which make the Sound System better..maybe with Neon or DSP Acceleration for more CPU Power..
..and a better Video playing Acceleration.
 
I dont have a Video Grabber, and i mostly use the Pyra for Handheld Tasks , its ok for Office Stuff on the Go, but you would not want to edit big Exel Stuff on this small Screen..,
Allthough my intendet use was also planed to be as a Desktop PC Replacement: Use it as my Computer at Home, and put it then in my Pocket when im on the Go..
But then i found this Phytium PC which works much better as Desktop as its got a lot more RAM and a lot More Power..

I also testet to Record Gameplay on the Pyra itself, whit Kazam and OpenShot, but unfortunally this slows it down too much, so even Gameboy Advance will be unplayable.. so went back to my good old "Aim whit the Iphone Camera on the Pyra Screen and push reccord" methode..
 
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The problem (at least for me and might be me not collecting all the information) is, all was running on the devboard and it looked like it was "just" (yeah, I know) a matter of putting that on the Pyra PCBs.
As for the ScO: Last sparc of hope I got these days: RiscV.

But then there is the problem, that my eyesight is weakening (as it does for old guys), which makes the XTerm nearly not usable (at least in Default settings).

So maybe keeping one Pyra in the hope of a RiscV board or similar? I think about that.
So still one (#175 of prepre order) available.

RISC-V would add much more problems to actual Pyra software and driver problems.

RISC-V has a great future, but today even standard Linux support is not totally finished. You can look at SiFive: although some people at SiFive were in RISC-V from start, their RISC-V SBC (Single Board Computer) are not ready for "standard" use like for example Raspberry Pi boards are.

Next SOC for Pyra would need a better supported chip in Linux and in Open community. I think of a SoC like one used in PinePhone Pro, where Pyra could share a lot of development from PinePhone community, or a NXP i.MX SOC like those used in Librem 5 Linux smartphone or MNT Reform (and future Pocket Reform), because NXP warrants long term availavility and has great support. On other side those NXP SOCs are the most open SOC you can buy for running desktop Linux (others have big blobs).

I and a old friend are following Pyra from starting (even I remember originally it was going to have FullHD/1080p display, but it was "donwgraded" later to 720p), but we haven't ordered it because we prefer to wait. In these lot of years while I have follow and waited Pyra to be ready and available (it may be it will take some more years to be available to buy, even more years with a new SOC) I have seen how PinePhone and later PinePhone Pro, with lots of Linux options on them and active community, show up and now with optional hardware keyboard.

Even boys at MNT Reform are working on Pocket Reform, the pocket version of open MNT Reform notebook. It is possible Pocket Reform will carry a mechanical keyboard.

Even on Pine64 there is other project I love, PineNote, a small e-ink tablet/computer with real Linux for user. For my eyes an e-ink small Linux computer is a dream (I think some people will attach a keyboard to PineNote). Even I hate bluish LCD displays (in my LCD displays I set night or reading mode to decrease bluish): in that sense PineNote can be used without emitting light, but when you need light it can be set to warm/amber mode.

I continue to follow and "wait" for Pyra (Pyra in so many years is that: "patience and waiting"), and it is possible I buy not one but several of these computers (Pyra, PinePhone Pro, PineNote, Pocket Reform), but now Pyra is not my only option or my first option (for my old friend it is 1st option because he is a gamer and he needs gaming controls), partially because Pyra is not ready and as it goes so slow in hard and soft, I am sure the other options could arrive earlier to my hands.

Of course Pyra has two unique point: real "pocket size" and it mix of keyboard and game controls on same pocket case. I like to have gaming controls, but as I am no gamer, it may be I prefer a better keyboard than having worse keyboard plus gaming controls.

PD: I am aware of Intel small computers like those from GPD, but I am not interested in a Intel computer in my pocket, and they are too big.

PD2: Pyra with actual TI OMAP SOC can't even SUSPEND because that TI SOC was used only in cars and they didn't corrected/implemented that option. For my as a pocket computer is not usable with that SOC. I own a lot of old pocket computers and all of them can suspend and battery last a lot of time in that state, being ready to work in less than a second.
 
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As for the ScO: Last sparc of hope I got these days: RiscV.

...

So maybe keeping one Pyra in the hope of a RiscV board or similar? I think about that.

Why do you hope a RISC-V board be good for Pyra?

I like RISC-V but I think there is a lot of misconception about RISC-V in a lot of people.

RISC-V is an OPEN architecture/ISA (Instruction Set Architecture) but a future RISC-V SOC Pyra could use wouldn't be open: likely it would have a lot of propietary parts inside and even closed drivers and big blobs, even it could have no "best support".

Majority RISC-V SOCs won't be open, but closed and with closed software/drivers/etc. RISC-V is open for manufactures, but most RISC-V hard will be totally closed or mostly closed.

I prefer a NXP ARM SOC with best support (inside ARM world) and LTE (Long Term Availability) and no or near no blobs, even if is low performance¹, to a future closed/blobs RISC-V SOC.

NXP makes SOC even for industrial use and its focus, support and openness is much different from normal SOC in normal smartphones. They have best support in Linux, and they were chosen by more open projects: for example Librem 5 and MNT Reform.

On RISC-V there is a very interesting history about an open project for an open and hybrid CPU+GPU SOC design called Libre-SOC:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libre-SOC
https://libre-soc.org/

Libre-SOC started using RISC-V ISA but they founded RISC-V Foundation was the opposite to open, so finally they switched to POWER ISA (or OpenPOWER; POWER is an OPEN ISA from time ago) because there they found a much more open foundation.
You can read about it in: I comment that to show you how RISC-V is a very big thing but it is not as some people may think.

¹: For example NXP SOC used in Librem 5 or MNT Reform use quad Cortex-A53 cores. That cores are low performance (in-order-issue) and they are below Raspberry Pi 4 SOC, which uses quad core Cortex-A72, but Raspberry Pi SOCs are very closed (they start with a big closed firmware containing OS for GPU, and that closed OS and GPU govern SOC: it is not like normal SOC where you have a CPU and auxiliar GPU, but a GPU with auxiliar CPUs. Raspberry Pi SOC was designed that way as an infotainment SOC with auxiliar ARM CPU for auxiliar tasks).
 
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The i.MX 6 from NXP are nice, they only need a blob for SDMA, but work fine without it. But some newer SOCs from NXP I think that require blobs to access RAM, unfortunately. Rockchip is hopefully better for later SOCs, but it shoudl be assessed for each model.
Power9 from IBM was great but Power10 requires blobs again... (not suitable for Pyra, of course). But I think there was a thread especific for especulation on SOCs for future Pyra cpu boards ? I remember I left the thread because I wanted focus on delivering the Pyras with the current design first, before starting a new design or something.
 
The i.MX 6 from NXP are nice, t.... Rockchip is hopefully better for later SOCs, but it shoudl be assessed for each model.
If Pyra choose Rockchip used in PinePhone Pro it woulf be a bonus, as this SOC will have a big community around. But I don't know if Pyra case will have room to accommodate that SOC plus heat sink. The problem with Pyra design is that they left too little space for future SOCs that could be a bit taller or require more space for dissipation.

Power9 from IBM was great but Power10 requires blobs again... (not suitable for Pyra, of course).
There is a very interesting open SOC project based on POWER ISA (from time ago it is an OPEN ISA) called LibreSOC:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libre-SOC
https://libre-soc.org/

Of course we don't know when it will be ready, or if it would arrive to final commercial availability and LTE, so it is not a candidate for Pyra next CPU board.

But I think there was a thread especific for especulation on SOCs for future Pyra cpu boards ? I remember I left the thread because I wanted focus on delivering the Pyras with the current design first, before starting a new design or something.
Yes, there is at least a thread for especulation on SOCs and I have written on them, but I left it because Pyra giving birth is too slow, and CPU upgrade is very very far. Simply in this thread mclien talked about his hope in RISC-V CPU board for Pyra in #1, so I answered on my concerns about RISC-V in general and for Pyra in particular.
 
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Totally agree with your comments, it would be lovely if we could have a reliable little device to play with, the sound driver and a few other things being broken make it a little harder to work with.

I've used it on the train and the battery seems to be lasting 2 hours at the moment

It would be amazing if the mainboard got reworked a little bit to accomodate modern IO such as USB-C, that would solve lots of issues (Just have a single USB-C port and 2 USB-A ports) for power, HDMI and ethernet. Can get rid of the Mini HDMI port. Would be a welcome change and shouldn't change the case too much (Perhaps slightly adjusting the mold where the HDMI port is currently and adding the USB-C port there. This can of course wait until the CPU Board upgrade gets in (Probably the biggest thing right now other than software issues)
 
I got recently more than 2 Hours of Batterie Live from the Pyra, but i try to dimm the Keyboard and the Display when not needed..
At least on the times when i made the Videos i ditnt got the Audio Issue, on my private Gaming Sessions (Which arend much) i got Airpods over Bluetooth ..

Shure the whole Audio System have to get reworked, not everyone whants to use only Bluetooth Headphones and its also eats a lot of power as the Audio is driven by the CPU at the moment..
 
It would be amazing if the mainboard got reworked a little bit to accomodate modern IO such as USB-C, that would solve lots of issues (Just have a single USB-C port and 2 USB-A ports) for power, HDMI and ethernet. Can get rid of the Mini HDMI port. Would be a welcome change and shouldn't change the case too much (Perhaps slightly adjusting the mold where the HDMI port is currently and adding the USB-C port there. This can of course wait until the CPU Board upgrade gets in (Probably the biggest thing right now other than software issues)
An RJ-45 port is about twice the height of a USB type A port. Unless you allow a cutout in the board, it'd have to be mounted on one side or other of the board, colliding with either the hinge area or out the bottom of the unit. I'm not aware of anything else that matches the description 'ethernet port'. That was the last standard before everything started to get replaced with wifi.
 
RJ-45 is the only one in common use for ethernet where I live. I would like such a port, I use RJ-45 a lot. It would especially go well with a hardware Wi-Fi kill switch for people worried about radiation or privacy. Kind of like the Librem 5 has, even though they probably lack the RJ-45 port. (For some reason RJ-45 ports are rare to have on mobile phones.)
 
Sure, but there is always the USB-to-Ethernet adapter (already used that on the Pandora). My idea was more having a usb hub and a dock (where that RJ45 was plugged into).
 
Sure, but there is always the USB-to-Ethernet adapter (already used that on the Pandora). My idea was more having a usb hub and a dock (where that RJ45 was plugged into).
Indeed, that seems the easiest and most stragihtforward. I remember I once saw a laptop which was thinner than an RJ45 (at least the keyboard part), but it still had a RJ45 connector. It was like a shallower connector, but once you tried to softly insert the ehternet cable in it the connector kind of opened a jaw that protuded out of the laptop, so that the connector fits. I thought "just make the laptop thicker, you fools!", but it worked... I have no idea how those rj45 connectors may be called, and it possibly needs a very difficult integration with the case, but it exists. Not that it needs to exist, but it does.
 
As for the ScO: Last sparc of hope I got these days: RiscV.

So maybe keeping one Pyra in the hope of a RiscV board or similar? I think about that.

It may be I didn't explained RISC-V problem good enough, so I will try one more:

1/ ISA vs implementations​

RISC-V "ISA" is a very good thing because it is OPEN, but the OPEN part is the ISA, the instruction set. And the ISA (Instruction Set Architecture) is only an ABSTRACT MODEL of an architecture and instructions of a processor. You need an implementation of that ISA in real hardware, and for the same ISA can be infinite implementations and very very different implementations.

If you look for example at an specific ISA, for example IA-32 (Intel Architecture 32 bits), i.e. 32-bit x86 ISA (the one we used in IBM PC compatibles time ago), you will find even inside Intel there are very different implementations for that ISA. For example an Intel 386 is very different internally from an Intel 486 or an original Pentium, or Pentium 4 or Pentium M. All of them (forgetting some extensions and some minor instruction added) execute the same ISA, they get the same final results with same instructions, but they do it in very different ways internally and with very different performance results. If you could look inside internal specific CPU, you would see very different things, although all them run same ISA.

Let's go back to RISC-V: ISA (abstract model) is OPEN, but most implementations of that ISA, near all different, will be totally closed, like black boxes, and near all commercial implementations will be closed.

Of course there are and there will be open design of RISC-V ISA implementations, but most of them are/will be low-performance and won't get to real silicon masks, usually they are run on FPGA because can't accede to real custom silicon, which is much more expensive for small quantities. And the problem is that FPGA are expensive on performance, consume much more power than custom silicon, and much worse, they have lots of closed parts inside: There is no OPEN FPGA, so if you use an FPGA you end with a custom closed hardware.

So likely with RISC-V you have an open ISA, but you end with a closed commercial implementation on your processor/core (or using a closed FPGA not suitable for a lot of uses where you need better performance, lower power consumption or smaller size).

2/ CPU vs SOC​

A SOC includes much more components than only a CPU (or some number of CPU). For example it can include GPU, ISP (image signal processors), DSP, etc, etc. On Pyra you need a GPU/etc/etc, it can't run on a RISC-V SOC without GPU (it would need an external GPU chip, if you found it, being the result bigger in size).

The problem is that most of that components are closed, even some of them use closed drivers and blobs.

What is the point of "I have a RISC-V" if you end with a closed implementation of that ISA inside a SOC with closed GPU/etc/etc with closed drivers, no open complete doc/specifications, blobs...?

The REAL GOOD POINTS for OPEN SOFT is to have total specifications/documentation, good documentation and support, and OPEN DRIVERS. For example NXP is very good in those points, while you can find some RISC-V SOC and boards today bad on all points, even RISC-V without mainline Linux kernel.

3/ There are other OPEN ISA around.​

RISC-V will be very important, of course, even with time it could be bigger than ARM, but there has been and there are other OPEN ISA. Even some old ISA become OPEN time ago. For example I cited OpenPOWER used by actual Libre-SOC (they started using RISC-V but changed to POWER because they didn't liked un-open process of RISC-V Foundation).

The point is: if an ISA is OPEN it doesn't mean that a processor using that ISA be OPEN. In fact most of them are closed.

Most RISC-V chips will be used as processors in places where you don't know with it or even where most people doesn't know there is a processor. For example inside a hard-disk, SSD, mouses, routers, IoT, auxiliary processor inside boards...

4/ Is RISC-V bad thing?​

No, of course. It is a very good thing, but we must know an OPEN ISA doesn't imply the same than an OPEN OS (like Linux for example).

Someone can design or modify an open OS and run it on actual hardware. But with CPU someone design around ISA, the problem is that you can't run it in real custom silicon: in best case you can run it on an simulator or in an expensive closed FPGA, if that FPGA is big enough to accommodate that CPU design implementation, and with limited speed compared to the speed it could reach on real custom silicon.

5/ RISC-V open model​

RISC-V is SO OPEN all can do what they want (they don't need permission). A company can get OPEN RISC-V and make a TOTALLY CLOSED DESIGN. And in fact most RISC-V design will be totally closed. Even they can modify RISC-V ISA or implement custom instructions as they want (even without documenting it to other people).

Don't get wrong: RISC-V is mainly open for manufactures so they can do what they want without having to go open or grant permission; Near all they design and implementations will be closed. In other way they won't use RISC-V.

Behind RISC-V Foundation is not people like Stallman (GNU) or Torvalds (Linux), but the big industry. You can look at RISC-V Foundation members: it is IT industry. They want an Open ISA so they can do what they want without permission/license.

6/ Future RISC-V SOC​

Of course, it is likely some future day there will be some good RISC-V SOC from companies doing a good work, like NXP (even NXP will have RISC-V SOC). Even it is possible some company make "very open" SOC with RISC-V inside (also you need availability, good documentation and support). But the problem is that that is hypothetical future. That can take years at best.

And Pyra, with its slow progress, needs long term availability hard and good support. It is difficult a novel start-up SOC company can warrant long term availability and support.

7/ I LIKE RISC-V too​

Don't get me wrong: I like open ISA, all of them, and more the ones getting real silicon and being successful like RISC-V will be, but being an open ISA isn't equal to having an open SOC or open drivers/etc.

Even I love someone can design a RISC-V implementation on academic environment (there are someone), even in his home, but most of theses will no emerge to us, most of them will go no further than FPGA (being actual FPGA closed hardware).
 
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I'd like an FPGA CPU board programmed to the Apollo-Core Team's Motorola 68080 core, I'd vastly have better support than RISC-V and an entire Commodore Amiga back catalog...
It would be very interesting for Amiga followers. To run modern Linux I think it would not be good on FPGA, because although Linux support 68k architecture, performance on FPGA would be low to move modern Linux and modern soft.

I love Motorola 68k architecture, it was a dream and far better compared to horrible Intel x86, but 68k is too old today and CISC design lost against RISC design for a lot of reasons.

PD: I jumped from Commodore 8-bit to Amiga, and I own various Amiga 500 in my collection, but I am not an Amiga fan (I was decades ago, when I wanted and later had an Amiga).

PDD: I own very good TI-89 and TI-92 calculators with Motorola 68000 processor inside :) But I prefer my loved HP 48 series (with "rare" HP Saturn CPU designed and only used by HP). All those calculators are real pocket personal computers, as they can run programs written in assembly/machine language.
 
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