consumers have a right to feel frustrated upset disgusted or whatever else if they ordered something from a site that didnt deliver even if it was 5 or 10 years. imagine if the people at kickstarter can use that line to their backers "so u lost a few hundred dollars, big deal" but these people seem to feel like its okay
I pre-ordered a OpenPandora in 2010 and still haven't received anything
- Thread starter ponlork
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Feeling frustrated is fine, just don't expect any good results from it complaining here.
Just kind of perplexed why after more than a decade now is the time to complain. Why you didn't take action like many others did and got their money back from craig or got a discount from ED shop and got a pandora... you could have done something if it really mattered to you, but now you bitch about it ..
Just kind of perplexed why after more than a decade now is the time to complain. Why you didn't take action like many others did and got their money back from craig or got a discount from ED shop and got a pandora... you could have done something if it really mattered to you, but now you bitch about it ..
first of all i did take action and posted on the thread about the fiasco years from 2012-2013 and on and off again via email and was met with the same dismissiveness claiming nothing can be done but the extortion deal of coughing up another 350$ to get a upgrade. or to simply wait which i did like many others have. Whatever is going on in people's lives whether they got a ton of other issues to deal with that they can't be on the forums 24/7 for 10 years straight everyday to be met with the same dismissive responses is anybody's guess but they shouldn't have to explain why they werent as relentless in pursuing it.
any honest company would have had the situation resolved without having the customer constantly inquire about it for years and years. when a site assure you for years and years that things are still moving in the right direction even if there's complications they facing, that itself took years but we waited instead of demanding refunds. There might be solutions for people in the EU or the UK to get the issue resolved but what about people from the US and overseas?
anyone who see someone on kickstarter saying "to get over it or to stop bitching about it" to the backers people would say dude is a piece of shit yet u try to claim that there aint no pieces of shit here. these people try to claim that there's no possible resolution that can be done. any honest company could have easily worked out a solution. for instance, if someone purchased a psp from a site that didnt deliever, and 10 years later the people running the site will be u kno what? here take mines. simple but these people here are pieces of shit snakes or incompetent to even think of that
ClockworkCoder
Chaotic Neutral
Clearly (and unfortunately) that didn't work, yet you're back again after 10 years to do the same, and yet somehow expect the outcome to be different? It's too late, and whining about it on the forums is not going to fix it; you're not the only person to have spent money and lost it due to ill circumstances.
TeDaDeS
Forum Addict!
Well, I like to understand why he thinks that after this period of time it's not 'done' yet. And I think on the forums we've been 'digesting' this this over years already. And it clearly hasn't happen with Ponlork yet. So I think we're somewhat the ideal crowd to help.
The end result will probably not be that the Pandora or money will be delivered though, but hopefully the idea that the Open-Pandora was one big scam and ED's still walking around while a bunch of people didn't receive anything can be cleared up.
The analogy with the bakery might not have been the best
I think a band analogy might be better if analogies help at all in this situation. But I feel like an analogy is needed as the shop part might be causing some of this (what I perceive as) confusion.
Imagine ED had a band, small but selling shirts and everything with a tiny home store.
Graig and others also had their bands, but every band was still small.
All the bands got the idea to play together with some of the members, as a new one-time band collaboration.
They recorded their music and were all happy with the result of their collaboration.
To sell their music they all liked selling it on CD's, as that was like this back then, and Graig proposed his shop would handle all of this.
All the other members bought their CD's via Graig's shop, and they new it would be great as they collaborated on producing this music.
Would those CD's be made, heck yeah, they all covered the cost and had some small amount of CD's already.
But Graig for some reason couldn't get all the CD's produced as expected, his shop couldn't deliver them to either customers or the other collaborating band members.
So while the band members did collaborate with Graig to produce the music, they didn't own or collaborate in his shop. Their own shops were just doing fine.
But in the end their just weren't enough CD's to provide to their fans that bought them.
Graig didn't handle the situation gracefully and most/all band members and customer got angry, so Graig ran and probably suffered alone hidden somewhere.
But ED didn't like this situation, he and the other bands had put time, money and hopes in creating this collaborative art.
So what did ED do? He had used the original recordings and produced CD's to start production of his own. And he didn't stop there, he improved the CD's and delivered even higher quality.
And he also kept managing his part of the community: the forums and support.
He also felt bad for all his fans that bought from Graig, as they are just as impacted as he was. If there was anyone that felt betrayed by the whole ordeal it was ED.
So ED was taken all the money he made from sales from the CD and his own shop sales to compensate Graigs customers.
But this compensation of these customers had to stop somewhere. For ED this was when he started running out of the first batches of original CD's, and the newer ones are much more expensive to produce.
So ED proposed that these customers had to pay the additional cost of these newer CD's only, not the full price.
Eventually all CD's made where sold, and ED kept up his forum and his support section.
Later ED made a new album, without Graig's involvement obviously, and started selling those CD's.
Then one disgruntled original customer pop's up again and claims ED and Graig are the same thing, same band, and how should he know the 'bands' shop was only Graigs and not ED's. It's one band, right, so ED is partially to blame.
And I think everyone agrees the band made the music, we just disagree one the part where Graig's shop is the 'band'-shop, as this was never the case. Graig has his shop, as he had a band already, ED has his shop for his band already. There was never a 'band'-shop to begin with. There was only a collaboration between bands, and multiple shops selling the same album. The problem was that Graig's shop also handled all sales of CD's to all other shops, and ED's shop was the only shop compensating customers afterwards.
So I hope Ponlork, after possible more discussion, understands ED isn't a bad guy. He's the opposite. He loves his art and his fans, it's his life. After a decade he probably also hopes the whole thing is finally over and wished it never happened.
But ED was always open to help, and to come in and blame ED for doing nothing over these 10 years just sounds pretty hash. And that probably is also reason it invokes a harsh response from some of our forum members.
This harsh response isn't because Ponlork can't feel he's impacted by the Graig's (unplanned, but never the less failed) actions, it's because he's blaming ED for his situation while we've seen ED try his best to resolve it paying a great personal cost doing so and still not giving up.
That's why I wouldn't be surprised ED would even try to work something out, even after a decade, but it really doesn't feel fair to demand this from my perspective.
And personally I would like Ponlork to perceive this community as a friendly and helpful one, we stuck through this whole situation ourselves for 10 years and are still supporting ED with the Pyra (which isn't going as smooth as everyone hoped either).
And most of us do this because we believe more in the art of open-source collaborative work compared to cheaper mass-produced (sometimes uninspired) closed-source alternatives.
With an optimistic hope the future will still have this spark of hope of a bright future where consumers don't feel like they have to buy products that break and have to be thrown away after two years.
Where people believe and have trust in each other to be able to just provide funds to a single person to lead this way forward and provide us with a working product that embodies this concept.
Not because it's a better performing product spec wise compared to it's mass produced friends, but to provide history with at least one example that 'better' alternatives were possible and making poor-supported throw-away products were a choice.
TeDaDeS
Forum Addict!
Btw. I also understand some people think: “Dude, I just wanted a console with a keyboard, so I can emulate my favorite C64 games”.
And I read this as: I want support for my very old hardware via emulation, and ED’s support to get me there. As I, a consumer, thinks games should be ‘free’ and not vendor-locked. Trust of the community to support this hardware is done by making the hardware open-source to. If someone wants to build or emulate the Pandora they can. Even without ED’s help.
I like commercial stuff to, but I really dislike not being able to play my games if it’s not connected to some (non-open-source) online service.
So I do support GOG and Steamdeck, even if they aren’t ‘perfect’.
And I read this as: I want support for my very old hardware via emulation, and ED’s support to get me there. As I, a consumer, thinks games should be ‘free’ and not vendor-locked. Trust of the community to support this hardware is done by making the hardware open-source to. If someone wants to build or emulate the Pandora they can. Even without ED’s help.
I like commercial stuff to, but I really dislike not being able to play my games if it’s not connected to some (non-open-source) online service.
So I do support GOG and Steamdeck, even if they aren’t ‘perfect’.
When it occurred there were many people upset and expressing their frustrations. it'll be like if someone sees a person running in a highway alone he'll be subjected to ridicule but if there's a hundred people with him then it's a marathon. it shouldnt matter if there's 1 person or 100, what's right is right. Yeah i voice my frustrations when it occurred and was given optimistic news that things can be resolved in time, whatever happen in between that time of why a person didnt cry about it every single day for years whether they going through health issues, deaths in the family, homelessness or whatever it shouldn't matter. a customer shouldnt have to be the one who has to keep constantly inquiring about something they ordered. It'll be like if you loan 500$ to somebody and they disappear and they feel if you dont say anything well they feel its alright to not handle their duty to reimburse them and just ignore it.
to act like everything was resolved overnight in 2012-2013 is stupid. many people didnt get their units until several years later
If Dr dre, TLC, taylor swift or whoever is working on a crowdfunding album that they put on a site for customers to pre-order, and it got thousands of orders from fans, and the pressing plant of the disc went bankrupt or it was discovered that they were shady and so the artist cut ties with them, they would feel still feel like it's their duty to reimburse the fans who bought the project or deliver a better product without having the customers pay extra. same way if they purchased tickets to their show, if for whatever reason the show couldn't go on they will refund the honest paying customers. they'll feel like a piece of shit not to.
the US isn't obligated to assist the Mexican government in apprehending the cabo6 people who committed the crime in Mexico, but morally they would have to otherwise it'll be a pr nightmare. if there wasn't a lot of attention on the case it would have been ignored
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what's despicable is those same staff members who organized the thing for years ridiculing those honest people who paid for their product and waited patiently for years and years and assured that things are still moving then to abruptly tell them there's nothing they can do to get over it and to mock those same people who put trust in them is disgusting which shows the mindset of these people
to say they're "incapable" of resolving the situation is disingenuous and them making excuses like they've done so with every issue that arise. deflect and place blame on everyone but their damn self
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me personally i didnt know what open source was at the time. when i first came across this i was dabbling with a lot of psp homebrew and was interested in indie development and creating my own games and somehow stumbled across the device probably from a qj.net or pspdev forum i cant remember. that's all it really was, i dont like doing deep dives into things until i have it at my disposal so i didnt bother creating a account to post on the forums or whatever but i did peep the place before ordering
b_o_b
Advanced Member
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Appreciate the effort but no - they don't. This person is a troll, has mental issues or is trying the blame game and hopes ED will take the bait. People like this will get nowhere in life, you can have some fun online but avoid them like the plague IRL.
TeDaDeS
Forum Addict!
I think ED gave people a choice, either get a to be reimbursed or wait for a Pandora. But there weren’t enough Pandora’s to provide.
The later models, made by ED, were more expensive so he asked to pay the difference in production cost only. I think the community chipped in to fund/compensate some of these customers.
ED doesn’t have dr.Dre money, he’s (and still is I guess) a regular guy and doesn’t have millions of spare cash to hand out. He could have claimed to be bankrupt and no one would have been helped.
And if some music label organizes a crowdfund campaign, do you really hold the artist responsible?
If you buy a faulty product, do you hold the factory responsible or the seller?
If you buy from an seller that doesn’t deliver, others promoting him are responsible to compensate you?
Sure ED worked with Graig on creating the Pandora. But Graig sold them also to other people. Some Pandora’s were made, funding could have been fine. Graig just didn’t give you a Pandora, while he did give it to others. ED isn’t liable for Graig’s shop, only his own.
If you feel so strongly about this you could pursuit a legal route, cost aside, I still think you wouldn’t win that case.
Doesn’t mean you can’t be angry about the situation. I think that your current approach will not yield any good results. It only appear to cause push back, even if you are totally right.
I try to understand, learn about others their opinions. I can be wrong to. But I understand what you mean, and even in real-life I hope both people in a discussion learn. If you know for sure people don’t learn, there is indeed no use to try.
it is my belief that small grassroots indie companies are more likely to reimburse customers who were first to purchased a cd from their site because indie musicians or small companies value those who purchase their products, invest in them or buy their albums when they were just starting out. If something goes wrong where the earlybird customers didn't get the CD that they purchased for whatever reason, they would find a way to make things right. would they not? When something is on a larger scale like a Dr Dre or somebody they may see so many comments scrolling that they probably wont even be aware of what their fans are saying. So that analogy you tried to use fell flat
The customers shouldnt have to be dragged into the mess. You can read a bunch of failed kickstarter projects with the same tired excuses. whenever disaster happens they always point the finger, undermine their involvement and try to deny any responsibility. and u people feel i should just instantly believe every excuse they give cuz they were a slick talker? none of that stuff that came out years later of him saying he was only the spokesperson or had a totally separate company was mentioned. it was only mentioned 3-4 years later when things fell apart and he tried to deny involvement
the only fault i had was putting trust in these dishonest despicable scoundrels. but u know what? im still going to support small grassroot companies, it's piece of shit people like these who cant own up to shit, give up at the slightest issue that arise, tell their backers to stop whining, that their early investors are trolls, and people wonder why sites like ebay and amazon tend to side with buyers cuz these sick twisted individuals like on that weasel bob above and the rest of you scoundrels on this site who ruin it for the good honest sellers who feel like its okay for customers to purchase a 500$ product from the site and not get anything but a extortion offer of paying 350$ extra or nothing
u dont need dr dre money to do what's right. to say he incapable of reimbursing is just another excuse. if a indie artist/band run a crowdfund campaign, yes i hold them responsible if they dont deliver. if it failed i would expect at least a refund, is that not fair? especially if they were the ones who ran the campaign from their site that they built. if i buy a faulty product from a site or seller i'll take it up with the site or seller, which is why in here. i bought it from this site. only thing is i didnt receive any product or refund. just excuses and ridicule
"If you buy from an seller that doesn’t deliver, others promoting him are responsible to compensate you?"
if i buy from a site that is representing itself as the product and doesnt mention anywhere about being a promotor then i'll take it with the site, ie openpandora.org.
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if the person residing at the house assures me everyday that he still has my hammer and it'll be delivered to me, still resides there even when his mother/owner left, yeah i'll ask for my hammer back if its worth 500$
that analogy doesn't work when it comes to business, if someone pre-orders a game, and in the middle of that the game's development the company merges or is bought out by another company, that new company will still honor the game that the customer purchased. not sure how you imbeciles can't grasp that
would u say its false advertising for them to put on their website that the second batch will be ready to ship out in 2 months? or will you keep making more excuses for them
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ClockworkCoder
Chaotic Neutral
So you are just trolling.
Or...
Do you get the impression that there isn't anyone who's on your side here? Any thoughts why?
Edit: it may not have been clear, but the questions were intended as rhetorical, for quiet introspection.
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- Joined
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- 11,409
Except that person clearly stated he doesn't have your Hammer from the beginning, but has a different Hammer that had to be manufactured from scratch unfortunately it cost more make as they had to learn to make Hammers from scratch. However since the guy is being a stand up guy will discount the cost of the newer/better hammer for you. Except you didn't play back then and your opportunity is gone.
See I can put together a shitty analogy too...
You can continue to Troll here, but if you continue to name call and insult people here I will lock the thread, any retaliation from me locking the thread, by say opening other threads to continue this conversation will be met with more severe actions which you will not like.
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TeDaDeS
Forum Addict!
I actually agree with that, and it does mention ED's name literally on the Open-Pandora projects website. And ED in fact helped development of the Pandora.
The crowd-funding also happened to develop the Pandora, also supported by ED. And production actually was done, although with a lower than expected yield. This also caused Graig to do sell even more units in the hope it would solve his production problems.
It's just that ED wasn't working for Graig or his shop. Graig's shop mixed the open-source Pandora project and his shop and presented it as the same thing.
That's why ED's shop still exist and Graig's doesn't. Everyone can produce a Pandora, it's open-source. ED did this afterwards, and he wasn't using your money for his funding for those Pandora's.
But I also understand you blame everyone from the Pandora project, they are on the site and worked on the project. They allowed Craig to handle the funding and production.
I disagree on the part where ED worked for "OpenPandora Ltd." which was the legal entity handling the funding, production and the sales (and this was the shop you gave your money to).
Wait a minute, you can't do that. I just bought a printed version of this thread from Graig's website and due to all this discussion I have the feeling I'll not receive anything.
(this is a joke btw.)
