I think I am on the right track why the Panel does not work...
This is Table 3.4 from the data sheet
If you look at pin 26 and 27 and both columns you will notice contradicting names...
And Murphy did hit us: I did take the first column to connect -5V to Pin 26 and +5V to Pin 27.
Which appears to be wrong (fortunately there is the schematics of the small pcb already attached to to the display and I could remove some isolation foil and directly measure where C6 and C8 are connected to).
So this explains why a connected display makes the +/-5V break down (it is fortunately current limited so that it is unlikely that the panel is damaged).
BR, Nikolaus
Am Mon, 3 Feb 2014 13:20:28 +0100 hat "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" hns@goldelico.com geschrieben:
Hi,
oh, that's some good news.
Is it possible to switch the lines on the PCB?
I think I am on the right track why the Panel does not work...
This is Table 3.4 from the data sheet
Am 04.02.2014 um 00:23 schrieb Michael Mrozek:
Am Mon, 3 Feb 2014 13:20:28 +0100 hat "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" hns@goldelico.com geschrieben:
Hi,
oh, that's some good news.
Is it possible to switch the lines on the PCB?
Yes, I have done it on one board for the next stage experiments.
I think I am on the right track why the Panel does not work...
This is Table 3.4 from the data sheet
-- Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Michael Mrozek
OpenPandora GmbH Geschäftsführer: Michael Mrozek
Schäffbräustr. 11 85049 Ingolstadt Deutschland Tel.: 0841 / 13 177 33 http://www.openpandora.de/ HRB 4879, Amtsgericht Ingolstadt
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Hi,
well, the official release has certainly lead to some effects.
Besides two people who contacted me as they want to invest (haven't checked how much yet) and two more who would like to officially distribute it, someone working for Qualcomm has contacted me to let me know it should be possible for us getting one of their SoCs as well.
Well, the question is, if we can get dev boards, all needed technical details and a good price within a short timeframe, should we consider switching to Qualcomm?
We haven't started to integrate the OMAP5 onto our PCB yet, and the Snapdragon 800 seems impressive... and has OpenSource GPU drivers available.
http://www.qualcomm.com/snapdragon/processors/800
What do you think? Nikolaus, you should probably know whether it would be possible technically.
notaz, does it have all the stuff we need for software? (Linux drivers should be available, but does it have Neon and 2D acceleration we can use?)
Just to make sure: We don't know yet if we can get it - but the question is: IF we can get it, would it make sense to switch?
Hi,
Am 05.02.2014 um 14:04 schrieb Michael Mrozek:
Hi,
well, the official release has certainly lead to some effects.
Besides two people who contacted me as they want to invest (haven't checked how much yet) and two more who would like to officially distribute it, someone working for Qualcomm has contacted me to let me know it should be possible for us getting one of their SoCs as well.
Well, the question is, if we can get dev boards,
I think we already considered to use the DevBoard which is the "DragonBoard" (what a nice coincidence to DragonBox, DragonFly :):
all needed technical details and a good price within a short timeframe, should we consider switching to Qualcomm?
We haven't started to integrate the OMAP5 onto our PCB yet, and the Snapdragon 800 seems impressive... and has OpenSource GPU drivers available.
It is funny with the Freedreno that the main driving person is an TI employee:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=qualcomm_freedreno&am...
Maybe this is something for a statement for the discussion about an "IT" petition :)
But if I look here:
http://freedreno.github.io/ http://bloggingthemonkey.blogspot.de/
indicates that it is still work in progress.
http://www.qualcomm.com/snapdragon/processors/800
What do you think? Nikolaus, you should probably know whether it would be possible technically.
I have no details but like with the modems those SoCs are to some extent exchangeable. Because everyone wants the same features from them: * CPU * Display * RAM * USB3.0 + other ports * some I2C, SPI, GPIOs etc.
One thing has to be considered: the Snapdragon is designed as a complete SoC including UMTS/LTE and WLAN/BT. So we have to take care to get a (cheaper?) version without these functions.
The reason is that we can't implement a system based on these fully integrated chips including radio for two reasons:
a) we need some firmware that runs on the CPU - and most likely limits us to Android and we get the same and even more heavy discussions as with the "closed" GPU b) we need our own certifications for everything
So I would still stay with external 3G module + external WLAN/BT module, even if Qualcomm will try to convince us to user their fully integrated chips.
notaz, does it have all the stuff we need for software? (Linux drivers should be available, but does it have Neon and 2D acceleration we can use?)
For the MIPI display we could most likely use the Sony Xperia Z driver I have found yesterday :)
Just to make sure: We don't know yet if we can get it - but the question is: IF we can get it, would it make sense to switch?
Well, it is not answerable without having it seen and evaluated. The easier to answer question with the current level of information is:
Under which conditions would it make sense to switch?
IMHO: * CPU+GPU performance is at least as good (we really need to benchmark it carefully) * it is not more expensive (assuming we can get it in the low quantities we want) * we can handle the chip in PCB dimensions and production (BGA pitch) * we have enough information to "copy" the Dragonboard circuits
If any of these is worse than with the OMAP5, I would say the "open GPU driver" is not outweighting the downsides.
But we could also ask TI for help to open the SGX drivers... E.g. by permitting Rob Clark to work on it. If they ever want to see an OMAP5 in a consumer device :)
BR, Nikolaus
Am Wed, 5 Feb 2014 14:54:00 +0100 hat "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" hns@goldelico.com geschrieben:
Hi,
Well, the question is, if we can get dev boards,
I think we already considered to use the DevBoard which is the "DragonBoard" (what a nice coincidence to DragonBox, DragonFly :): http://mydragonboard.org/
Yep, those are readily available.
We haven't started to integrate the OMAP5 onto our PCB yet, and the Snapdragon 800 seems impressive... and has OpenSource GPU drivers available.
It is funny with the Freedreno that the main driving person is an TI employee: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=qualcomm_freedreno&am...
Heh - neat ;)
Maybe this is something for a statement for the discussion about an "IT" petition :)
Not sure if they will care...
But if I look here: http://freedreno.github.io/ http://bloggingthemonkey.blogspot.de/ indicates that it is still work in progress.
Yes, but we could still use the closed driver as well. People would still be happy that they could get an open driver if they wanted to.
I have no details but like with the modems those SoCs are to some extent exchangeable. Because everyone wants the same features from them:
- CPU
- Display
- RAM
- USB3.0 + other ports
- some I2C, SPI, GPIOs etc.
Yep, that shouldn't be a deal with our current design.
One thing has to be considered: the Snapdragon is designed as a complete SoC including UMTS/LTE and WLAN/BT. So we have to take care to get a (cheaper?) version without these functions.
The Snapdragon 800 can be bought with and without modem.
So I would still stay with external 3G module + external WLAN/BT module, even if Qualcomm will try to convince us to user their fully integrated chips.
Yes, definitely.
notaz, does it have all the stuff we need for software? (Linux drivers should be available, but does it have Neon and 2D acceleration we can use?)
For the MIPI display we could most likely use the Sony Xperia Z driver I have found yesterday :)
Oh, okay ;)
Just to make sure: We don't know yet if we can get it - but the question is: IF we can get it, would it make sense to switch?
Well, it is not answerable without having it seen and evaluated. The easier to answer question with the current level of information is:
I can answer some of them.
- CPU+GPU performance is at least as good (we really need to
benchmark it carefully)
CPU: Yes, definitely. The Snapdragon is very similar to an A15, but we've got 4 cores with over 2GHz here.
Also, it's using lp-ddr3-memory, so a bit faster as well.
GPU - I don't know, but it should be fast enough for most things anyways.
There's OpenCL and OpenGL ES3.0 available (only OpenGL ES2.0 for the OMAP).
- it is not more expensive (assuming we can get it in the low
quantities we want)
Yeah, well, TI is one of the most expensive ones out there, so that should work.
- we can handle the chip in PCB dimensions and production (BGA pitch)
PCB dimension shouldn't be an issue, as it is smaller than the OMAP5432. Die size (edge seal) 11.14 mm x 10.62 mm
BGA Pitch is something I need to find out.
- we have enough information to "copy" the Dragonboard circuits
Yes, that will be checked as well.
If any of these is worse than with the OMAP5, I would say the "open GPU driver" is not outweighting the downsides.
Qualcomm processors are pretty good, that's why they're being used in most High-End-Smartphones.
But we could also ask TI for help to open the SGX drivers... E.g. by permitting Rob Clark to work on it. If they ever want to see an OMAP5 in a consumer device :)
They didn't really care much about the Pandora, sadly.
Am 05.02.2014 um 17:37 schrieb Michael Mrozek:
Am Wed, 5 Feb 2014 14:54:00 +0100 hat "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" hns@goldelico.com geschrieben:
Hi,
Well, the question is, if we can get dev boards,
I think we already considered to use the DevBoard which is the "DragonBoard" (what a nice coincidence to DragonBox, DragonFly :): http://mydragonboard.org/
Yep, those are readily available.
We haven't started to integrate the OMAP5 onto our PCB yet, and the Snapdragon 800 seems impressive... and has OpenSource GPU drivers available.
It is funny with the Freedreno that the main driving person is an TI employee: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=qualcomm_freedreno&am...
Heh - neat ;)
Maybe this is something for a statement for the discussion about an "IT" petition :)
Not sure if they will care...
But if I look here: http://freedreno.github.io/ http://bloggingthemonkey.blogspot.de/ indicates that it is still work in progress.
Yes, but we could still use the closed driver as well. People would still be happy that they could get an open driver if they wanted to.
Maybe they will be less happy in other aspects:
https://developer.qualcomm.com/forum/qdevnet-forums/general-discussion/6364
For example we might need a permission from Qualcomm to publish our schematics because they contain the pin assignments and names... For TI this is public information.
I have no details but like with the modems those SoCs are to some extent exchangeable. Because everyone wants the same features from them:
- CPU
- Display
- RAM
- USB3.0 + other ports
- some I2C, SPI, GPIOs etc.
Yep, that shouldn't be a deal with our current design.
One thing has to be considered: the Snapdragon is designed as a complete SoC including UMTS/LTE and WLAN/BT. So we have to take care to get a (cheaper?) version without these functions.
The Snapdragon 800 can be bought with and without modem.
So I would still stay with external 3G module + external WLAN/BT module, even if Qualcomm will try to convince us to user their fully integrated chips.
Yes, definitely.
notaz, does it have all the stuff we need for software? (Linux drivers should be available, but does it have Neon and 2D acceleration we can use?)
For the MIPI display we could most likely use the Sony Xperia Z driver I have found yesterday :)
Oh, okay ;)
Just to make sure: We don't know yet if we can get it - but the question is: IF we can get it, would it make sense to switch?
Well, it is not answerable without having it seen and evaluated. The easier to answer question with the current level of information is:
I can answer some of them.
- CPU+GPU performance is at least as good (we really need to
benchmark it carefully)
CPU: Yes, definitely. The Snapdragon is very similar to an A15, but we've got 4 cores with over 2GHz here.
Also, it's using lp-ddr3-memory, so a bit faster as well.
GPU - I don't know, but it should be fast enough for most things anyways.
There's OpenCL and OpenGL ES3.0 available (only OpenGL ES2.0 for the OMAP).
- it is not more expensive (assuming we can get it in the low
quantities we want)
Yeah, well, TI is one of the most expensive ones out there, so that should work.
Anyways it would be some argument to discuss the price with TI again if we can really get an alternative.
- we can handle the chip in PCB dimensions and production (BGA pitch)
PCB dimension shouldn't be an issue, as it is smaller than the OMAP5432. Die size (edge seal) 11.14 mm x 10.62 mm
Looks good.
BGA Pitch is something I need to find out.
Well, we don't fear 0.4mm :)
- we have enough information to "copy" the Dragonboard circuits
Yes, that will be checked as well.
If any of these is worse than with the OMAP5, I would say the "open GPU driver" is not outweighting the downsides.
Qualcomm processors are pretty good, that's why they're being used in most High-End-Smartphones.
But we could also ask TI for help to open the SGX drivers... E.g. by permitting Rob Clark to work on it. If they ever want to see an OMAP5 in a consumer device :)
They didn't really care much about the Pandora, sadly.
So it boils down to the question if Qualcomm cares more about the Pandora.
I think until we have any good news we will continue as planned, i.e. getting this MIPI panel work @ OMAP5.
BR, Nikolaus
Hi,
On 02/05/2014 03:04 PM, Michael Mrozek wrote:
notaz, does it have all the stuff we need for software? (Linux drivers should be available, but does it have Neon and 2D acceleration we can use?)
NEON: All newer SoCs from 2013 or later have NEON, so no worries there. However it was measured that NEON on older Snapdragon is weaker than on competition, CortexA8 even: http://www.openssl.org/~appro/Snapdragon-S4.html ..and there are rumors that it's still a problem on newer snapdragons too (maybe it's how they save power?): http://forums.ppsspp.org/showthread.php?tid=7069&pid=58581#pid58581 no idea how that all compares with CortexA15..
2D acceleration: doesn't seem to be available. Android only needs a regular 3D GPU, so they probably didn't bother adding 2D one. OMAP5's 2D has potential to be used for Xorg, but its unclear if it would ever work out..
GPU: There might be problem getting Linux GPU driver as qualcomm don't seem to be Linux focused, you need to find out if it's even available. It's possible to run Android's driver with wrapper libs, but that would be a bit of a mess.. The open driver looks very promising, but like Nikolaus said it's WIP.. GLES3 that some forum posters want so much will need binary blobs, at least for now.
DSP: Snapdragon has custom DSP called "Hexagon", but documentation is under NDA. In contrast OMAP's C64x is fully documented (and always was), but still nothing is using it on pandora, even after bsp wrote his framework.. Snapdragon's Hexagon still has free compilers and documentation for older versions of the chip.
Mainline: Qualcomm doesn't seem to care about mainline, there is little support so vendor kernel will have to be used. However because the chips are so popular, there is a bit community activity and even sonymobile sent a driver, but it's nothing overall compared to OMAPs mainline activity .
Just to make sure: We don't know yet if we can get it - but the question is: IF we can get it, would it make sense to switch?
As usual it's not easy to answer, there are various advantages and disadvantages..
Grazvydas