Cellular Discussion [Split from] Bugs and Calculations

[edgex004]

You and I are on the same page then.

It was not explicit before and feeding from the news discussion leading into this, I felt the need to clarify with 'why' there really are only 2 options for US carriers.

I also consider this to trump and defeat any claims that crippling the US device with 3G has any compatibility advantages - it does not.

The US 4G GSM module, being theoretically compatible and fast with the only two viable US networks should make this a non-argument.

Well, to be fair to the 3G module:

- Yes it has less carrier compatibility in the US; removing T-Mobile compatibility, leaving you with only AT&T or Cricket (which is just AT&T off-contract).

- However, the 3G module gains location-based compatibility by giving you at least one 3G option in both US and Europe. The US 4G chip is limited to 2G if you go to Europe. For people who plan to travel between the US and Europe, this is a big plus for the 3G chip.

Honestly I think I'm still leaning towards the 4G module due to theoretical top speed while at home in the US, but losing carrier compatibility in order to gain location compatibility seems like a pretty fair trade to me.

 

[Grench]

Well, to be fair to the 3G module:

- Yes it has less carrier compatibility in the US; removing T-Mobile compatibility, leaving you with only AT&T or Cricket (which is just AT&T off-contract).

- However, the 3G module gains location-based compatibility by giving you at least one 3G option in both US and Europe. The US 4G chip is limited to 2G if you go to Europe. For people who plan to travel between the US and Europe, this is a big plus for the 3G chip.

Honestly I think I'm still leaning towards the 4G module due to theoretical top speed while at home in the US, but losing carrier compatibility in order to gain location compatibility seems like a pretty fair trade to me.

So your argument FOR the 3G instead of the 4G is that it will DECREASE the number of people who could theoretically purchase a Pyra with mobile data and have it work with a carrier in their area?

The US 4G GSM module has a population of 191 million potential purchasers/users (AT&T & T-mobile) without requiring them to switch providers.

The 3G module has a population of 128 million potential purchasers (AT&T only), MANY of which will always lament that someone castrated their data connectivity because they wanted mobile data to work crappy in both the US and Europe at the expense of US based usage - which is the whole point of -having- the module to begin with. Many of those potential buyers will just decide that they'll use WiFi hot spot via their phone which would be 10x or more faster than buying a 3G module.

AT&T and T-mobile US 4G GSM data speeds average around 15Mbps with peaks up to 60Mbps.
AT&T and T-mobile US 3G data speeds run right around 0.8Mbps with peaks up to 3 Mbps.

http://bgr.com/2013/06/17/4g-lte-speeds-att-verizon-sprint-t-mobile/

Even if it only cost half as much, 3G is not a viable data device option. If we're going to pay for US mobile data coverage, that means we WANT mobile data coverage. If it were 10 years ago for the Pandora, then 3G would have been as good as it gets.

The price difference between the modules pales in comparison to the monthly service contract to use it. If you're going to pay for that service contract, then you may as well get the most out of it - which means 4G.

I'm already on the hook for a prototype, which I understand will come with a US 4G GSM module.

If I were given a choice between buying a 4G, 3G or no mobile, I would choose 4G. If I had to choose between 3G and none, I would choose none because at that point I would still have to carry and bind to a phone to get decent throughput.

But the 3G gets GPS and people will want that just for the GPS... There are lots of inexpensive bluetooth pucks that do GPS too. I would see the audience of people willing to buy a wireless module just for the GPS but are too cheap to buy it at the difference between 3G and 4G prices to be a very small audience. If they're so desperate to save $50, then they'll also want to save another $25 and just use a bluetooth GPS puck.

The US mobile chip option needs to focus on US mobile data capability. That means using the US 4G GSM chip or nothing.

 

[edgex004]

@Grench: I don't disagree with your overall argument. I also would much prefer having 4G speeds and not be locked to a single set of towers in the US.

I was simply responding to you saying that the 3G module has zero compatibility advantages. At least in my opinion, having 3G in Europe would be an advantage over having only 2G in Europe.

It seems that for many, including myself, this advantage does not outweigh losing 4G speed and losing one of the only compatible carriers while in the US.

However, I do intend to travel a lot over the next few years, so I can't deny that having 3G while abroad would be nice. For my personal use-case, 4G is awesome, 3G is okay, and 2G is near unusable.

 

[Grench]

Can anyone say definitively what size SIM the Pyra will use?

I was considering picking up a used 4G connected tablet and want the SIM to fit in either it or the Pyra.

Yes - this means I'm limiting my tablet choices to only those that have SIM card holders in the same form factor as the Pyra's.
[doublepost=1460570738,1460568684][/doublepost]Found documentation on the PLH8-US certifying it on AT&T's network:
http://developer.att.com/developer/device_detail.jsp?id=82ac913b-7cef-40d6-a6c5-b98d0f9aea0c

What I can't seem to find is more than 1 other device that was made with this chip in it. Apparently Honneywell created an industrial 'scan phone' using this chip.

What else uses it? I was wondering if there just happened to be a tablet that used the same chip with the same size SIM socket as the Pyra. Does anyone know of one?

 

[edgex004]

I don't know about AT&T, but Cricket provides you with a Nano-SIM and then gives you adapters that turn it into a micro-SIM or full sized SIM. I have heard rumors that these adapters can catch/bend the pins on your phone if you are not careful, but I've never had trouble with them.

So that is at least one option for you. Ask AT&T for a nano-SIM and then use an adapter for whatever device you like. Then you aren't limiting your options due to compatibility.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

Oh? Cricket gave me a regular SIM and cut it with some sort of punch so it would fit.

 

[Luke-Jr]

Hm, the problem was only with the 4G module?
Maybe we should switch back to 3G for the first batch (it'll be 20 - 25 EUR cheaper as well)

Noooooooooo
Does the 4G module not support all the 3G/2G frequencies anyway?

Is it true VoLTE is not supported? Does that mean voice coverage may be bad?

Do we even know modem MOQ will be an issue? Just need 500 people in each region to buy one, right?

Is the modem module easy to change? Maybe some people would be interested in buying *both* regions so they can swap when travelling internationally?

Last time I posted about sprint my information was old and somewhat outdated. Sprint will NOT sell sim cards for use with phones and does not have standard sims at all. Sprint does have 6 different non standard sims that each work with exactly 1 model of phone so the iPhone 6 SIM will not work on the Nexus 5 and vice versa. So no pyra on sprint AT ALL with any chip.

You can get Google's Project Fi which is a MVNO SIM for *both* T-Mobile *and* Sprint. So not strictly impossible...
[doublepost=1460710233,1460710092][/doublepost]Oh, and is there any chance someone might be able to get something like this (unlimited US LTE data) for Pyra users? (Ideally with voice service also...)

 

[Djoga'Ro]

You could offer only the 4G version to US costumers. That would increase sales on that, but probably decrease overall purchases.

 

[WizardStan]

Does the 4G module not support all the 3G/2G frequencies anyway?

The 4G module, PLS8-US supports all the US 3G/2G frequencies; the PLS8-E supports all the EU 3G/2G frequencies.
However, that's two different modules still. The PHS8-P supports all the US *AND* EU 3G/2G frequencies. If he can sell 500 PLS8-E and 500 PLS8-US then there's no problem, but if there's only demand for 500 phone versions at all between US and EU then he would technically be better off with the PHS8-P which can be used in both places.

You could offer only the 4G version to US costumers.

That doesn't solve the problem at all. He needs to sell 500 4G units to make it worthwhile.

My idea here!
EvilDragon, buy the 500 PLS8-US and 500 PLS8-EU modules that you need, charge people accordingly: if only 250 of each are purchased, you charge double the cost of the module to those users: it's a premium most of us are willing to pay.
But here's the bonus: that's still stock that you have and intend to use in future batches, so you promise everyone a voucher to your store for the extra money that can be redeemed only when all the respective modules are sold.
It's win-win-win, you get the money you need upfront for everything, we still get the 4G module, future batches already have some stock (unless you actually sell all 500 in the first batch, but then there's no problem at all), and nobody feels bad thinking they should have waited because future batches end up being cheaper for whatever reason. And if don't sell anymore ever then that's a risk distributed among the 4G adopters, not something you personally take on.
There's probably still a limit: if you order 500 and only sell 100 that means you need to charge 5x the actual cost upfront, turning your 500EUR device into an approximately 1000EUR device which is probably just about the limit of what most people would consider reasonable, even with the potential to get a 400EUR voucher if you sell out the remaining chips. So actually find out how many want to buy a 4G pyra before making the purchase, obviously.

 

[rygD]

You could offer only the 4G version to US costumers. That would increase sales on that, but probably decrease overall purchases.

Or just increase the price of the EU ones to cover the added cost, but make the US and wifi only ones the same price.

 

[Plume]

Or just increase the price of the EU ones to cover the added cost, but make the US and wifi only ones the same price.

Euh, sorry what ?

 

[rygD]

Euh, sorry what ?

Did you not notice what I was replying to, or did you take my suggestion seriously? Maybe it was something else. Let me know what I can do to help you out.

 

[Plume]

I've seen weird ideas in this thread (and in others). Sometimes it's hard to see what is sincere and what isn't.

 

[WizardStan]

Maybe it was something else.

I was equally confused. I assumed Djoga'Ro was serious, just misinformed about the situation. Without any other cues, your post sounds just as serious and misinformed, but I *know* you're aware of the situation, so I was thinking there was something intelligent in your suggestion that I just didn't see and was going to ask about.
From the context of this second post it's now clear you meant it as a joke. If either of you had made an obvious joke it would've been clear, but as it was it was a serious sounding misinformed reply to a serious sounding misinformed post.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

Bad phrasing on my side. I intended to say: For US costumers their would only the US 4G be available. No change for the rest of the world.
I know, still no great idea, but it's yet another option nontheless.

 

[rygD]

Bad phrasing on my side. I intended to say: For US costumers their would only the US 4G be available. No change for the rest of the world.
I know, still no great idea, but it's yet another option nontheless.

It is possible I am the one that is misunderstanding everything. Are you saying "those in North America could be sold only the US 4G version of the Pyra, and not the wifi only version, then there won't be as much of a problem reaching the minimum number required"?

@WizardStan and everyone, I thought I put a at the end, sorry about that. Now I seem like even more of a prick when going back and reading it. There needs to be a way to do tone of voice in text... Anyway, yes, joke.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

The 4G module, PLS8-US supports all the US 3G/2G frequencies; the PLS8-E supports all the EU 3G/2G frequencies.
However, that's two different modules still. The PHS8-P supports all the US *AND* EU 3G/2G frequencies. If he can sell 500 PLS8-E and 500 PLS8-US then there's no problem, but if there's only demand for 500 phone versions at all between US and EU then he would technically be better off with the PHS8-P which can be used in both places.


That doesn't solve the problem at all. He needs to sell 500 4G units to make it worthwhile.

My idea here!
EvilDragon, buy the 500 PLS8-US and 500 PLS8-EU modules that you need, charge people accordingly: if only 250 of each are purchased, you charge double the cost of the module to those users: it's a premium most of us are willing to pay.
But here's the bonus: that's still stock that you have and intend to use in future batches, so you promise everyone a voucher to your store for the extra money that can be redeemed only when all the respective modules are sold.
It's win-win-win, you get the money you need upfront for everything, we still get the 4G module, future batches already have some stock (unless you actually sell all 500 in the first batch, but then there's no problem at all), and nobody feels bad thinking they should have waited because future batches end up being cheaper for whatever reason. And if don't sell anymore ever then that's a risk distributed among the 4G adopters, not something you personally take on.
There's probably still a limit: if you order 500 and only sell 100 that means you need to charge 5x the actual cost upfront, turning your 500EUR device into an approximately 1000EUR device which is probably just about the limit of what most people would consider reasonable, even with the potential to get a 400EUR voucher if you sell out the remaining chips. So actually find out how many want to buy a 4G pyra before making the purchase, obviously.

I like this idea!

 

[Djoga'Ro]

It is possible I am the one that is misunderstanding everything. Are you saying "those in North America could be sold only the US 4G version of the Pyra, and not the wifi only version, then there won't be as much of a problem reaching the minimum number required"?

That was the idea, but @WizardStan's is better.

 

[Grench]

The 4G module, PLS8-US supports all the US 3G/2G frequencies; the PLS8-E supports all the EU 3G/2G frequencies.
However, that's two different modules still. The PHS8-P supports all the US *AND* EU 3G/2G frequencies. If he can sell 500 PLS8-E and 500 PLS8-US then there's no problem, but if there's only demand for 500 phone versions at all between US and EU then he would technically be better off with the PHS8-P which can be used in both places.

You left off the catch to doing 'just the 3G'. 4G is roughly 30 times faster than 3G.

If you have a chunk of data to down/up load that takes 1 minute on 4G, that same chunk would take approximately 30 minutes on 3G.

The whole point of having a mobile networks chip in the Pyra is data. Theoretical voice phone use is entirely secondary and more or less a novelty feature. I wouldn't even bother to advertise the voice phone capability because then people compare it to a phone instead of calling it a micro laptop (palmtop). Using it as a phone is an awkward proposition at best.

Dual full sized SDXC slots, a microSD, 32GB of eMMC, 2 USB 2.0, 1 USB 3.0, 1 eSATA, 802.11abgn with 2.4Ghz & 5Ghz frequencies and optional 4G wireless. This device is all about the data capabilities. Don't loose sight of that.

 

[rygD]

What Grench said (although for some people, any mobile data is better than none, for email or IRC). Although some of us want to use the Pyra for calls and messaging, until that has been done it may be better not to mention it (especially since someone still needs to make that all nice and tidy so users can use it).