Craig - Email The Boingboing Guy About The Drm


for all the doubters out there, why not simply hang back until the system is realised, see what happens and take it from there. problem solved.
 
The chances that I'll be buying commercial games isnt' that great, unless a game or APP that is sold REALLY catches my eye, OR gets offered for a low low price.

Mostly, I'll be playing the ports, playing the emulators, downloading maps for directions in my local area (scanned from my map book), showing off pictures to my family from my digital camera, watching Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes from my DVD's or Anime episodes, or just listening to music at the coffee shop. With all the things I'll be using it for, if I get a commercial game or APP for it, might just get put aside like Dungeon and Guarder did.

DRM wont really affect me, hardly, from what I understand. And anything that does, I'm almost %100 positive will work the way I expect it.
 
For what it's worth, I think the questions have been largely addressed by now. So I'm just replying to stuff to be an a-hole.

Alpha2 posted on Sep 22 2005 at 05:07 AM said:
prehaps you like to tell me how I'm wrong in that statement because I can't actually see that.

From earlier in this thread:"Yeah we get he dosen't like DRM but it dosent change the fact that having it on the GP2X dosent change anything, except the ability to play pirated content like music and movies that frankly would have been cracked long before it even gets to the system..."

You seem to be saying rather explicitly here that there will be DRM to restrict music piracy, though you don't say what form. Perhaps you meant that, there will be no native iTunes player, no native audible.com player, etc, and that a lack of those might be seen as DRM since people can legally buy a tune in iTunes and then not be able to play it on their new gp2x. But, if that's what you meant, the statement was inaccurate, because you assert that the presence of DRM on the gp2x would change something, which of course is not true. If you meant that you thought there would be some other DRM that would prevent you from, say, watching an episode of the Sopranos after it got broadcast flagged, well, the other folks here seem to disagree with you. That's what I mean when I say your statement was wrong.

Still dosent change the fact that many people had a kneejerk reaction to the mention of it.

You are absolutely correct there. I'll be disappointed (and, frankly, surprised) if boingboing doesn't update their post after hearing from either the manufacturer or a user who has played around with it and determined the extent of native protections and/or ways to circumvent them, if any.

However, please note that boingboing posed two specific questions about the platform, and I don't think they were fully answered before at best 12 hours ago, or at least not answered fully and specifically in a way that newcomers to this forum could easily find. I really want this device and didn't want to find out that it would watch over me in any way, or cripple itself after I got it with a firmware upgrade that for example killed MAME, so I asked around, eventually found this board, and kept asking until my questions were answered. (and for the record, Vimacs's concise if petulant reply simply got lost to me in the flame war, as we were posting back and forth, and I didn't see it until after I'd seen Robster's post, which I think was much more informative anyway). I don't hold out much hope for a product aimed at the open source and/or free software community that makes people dig for that info, rather than proclaim it proudly.

Also, please recall that "the boingboing post" was actually the second post, not the only one. The first one stirred up a lot of interest among people like me. I wouldn't be surprised if Craig comes out ahead due to boingboing.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
idpm,

Sorry if what I wrote made you feel "unwelcome" but my anger is not at all directed to you, but at the boingboing guy. Thing is, GamePark is small and needs whatever support they can get. Not lost sales due to an overly dramatic blog. And his wording was a bit dramatic.

Regarding the DRM, yes your concern is valid, especially as someone totally new to GamePark. But frankly we've had this question before, and it's been answered before (it's also in the FAQ).

GamePark isn't Apple. Personally I never owned anything by Apple and don't plan to.

As for how the GP2X DRM works - that IS a very valid question because at the moment we can only assume it's similar to the DRM used in GP32 and the Zodiac. Basically it's for commercial games only, and the game gets digitally signed to work either on one GP2X unit or on one SD card. But that's all it does.

If you, or anyone is still concerned about the DRM, just wait a while and one of our scene devs will eventually give us some insight into exactly how the DRM works. But as Craig wrote, it's for commercial games. Not for music, video, emus etc.

And I sincerely am sorry if I made you persoanlly feel uncomfortable. Like I said, it's not you I was upset at - it was the boingboing writer (Cory). Perhaps I'm a bit overprotective towar GamePark right now, because they're launching a new system, and frankly we don't have many companies around quite like GamePark. So I want them to do well, and not lose sales for no good reason.
 
I hate DRM even for commercial games.

As DaveC points out, why the hell should a purchased game only work on one particular unit. What happens if the unit breaks etc?

There are simpler methods of protecting copyright, such as serials and community resistance to warez without even needing 'DRM'.
 
declaration, that's only with downloaded games. if only playing on one 2X unit bothers you so much, then you should just pick up the box version with protection on the SD, right?
 
junker posted on Sep 22 2005 at 01:41 PM said:
declaration, that's only with downloaded games. if only playing on one 2X unit bothers you so much, then you should just pick up the box version with protection on the SD, right?
but (for the GP32) they tended to be much more expensive, had to be imported, were hard to find and not all games had an SMC card release.

Many people will not mind buying the games in the first place, but will be stung if their GP2X is stolen/lost/broken. Then they will be pissed off. To me, the DRM is an incentive to not buy commercial games.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
declaration posted on Sep 22 2005 at 01:31 PM said:
I hate DRM even for commercial games.

As DaveC points out, why the hell should a purchased game only work on one particular unit. What happens if the unit breaks etc?

There are simpler methods of protecting copyright, such as serials and community resistance to warez without even needing 'DRM'.

Yes I understand. I personally own several games that I can't play because of the reason you stated. And it sucks.

BUT...

DRM based protection schemes work well.

Serials don't. It just takes one guy on a newsgroup or whatever to give out a serial.

Community resistance - yes that does help too. But only to a limited degree. In fact the DRM used by GP32 and Zodiac could have been cracked as well. But it was due to the community resistance to warez that it wasn't (at least to any significant degree).

DRM + community resistance means a 99.9% chance that commercial games won't get warezed. Look at the Zodiac as a good example. Palm apps based on serial protection schemes are heavily warezed. Yet Zodiac specific apps have no warezing to speak of.

Sure it's inconvenient for users. But for commercial devs, who are getting ready to invest hundreds, maybe thousands, of hours to develop a new game - it's very nice to know that your game will actually be purchased and not pirated.

In the case of DRM, pricing really matters. Tapwave charged WAY TOO MUCH sometimes. For example, buying a game for $30 that you can only play on one unit - that sucks. But if the game is $10 - $15, not so bad.

So I'm hoping downloadable DRM'ed commercial games for GP2X will be very affordable.

Now boxed games, with the software signed to only operate from the media it's on - those could cost more and be worth it (like buying a GBA game).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
declaration posted on Sep 22 2005 at 01:52 PM said:
junker posted on Sep 22 2005 at 01:41 PM said:
declaration, that's only with downloaded games. if only playing on one 2X unit bothers you so much, then you should just pick up the box version with protection on the SD, right?
but (for the GP32) they tended to be much more expensive, had to be imported, were hard to find and not all games had an SMC card release.

Many people will not mind buying the games in the first place, but will be stung if their GP2X is stolen/lost/broken. Then they will be pissed off. To me, the DRM is an incentive to not buy commercial games.

But without DRM, there is almot no incentive at all for commercial games to be made. Devs know the GP2X is brand new and won't have a whole lot of users compared to GBA for example. So making a game for it is a gamble no matter what. Making a game for it with no assurance that it won't just be warezed the next day, that's a good reason to not even bother at all.

You have to think both side sof the coin to understand why the DRM is a necessary evil. What matters is that the DRM is only used for one purpose - to protect commercial games from piracy.

Lastly, an indie dev could choose to NOT use the DRM and go for a serial scheme or such. But it's unlikley they'd make that choice, since some percentage of the community WILL pirate the game. With DRM you're more likely to actually make money from each user that chooses to play the game.

One other thing - DEMOS! We should demand demos for commercial games that are DRM'ed. So at least we can be sure we really want to take the plunge of buying the full version.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi everybody,
I found out about this unit from Boingboing and I definately wanted one, (heck I want 10) and have been showing all my friends, it looks real real cool - it's totally, utterly, what I have been waiting for.

DRM concerns me tho, as I think it is a very serious issue. Let me elaborate.

From the posts so far I understand that :

<_< No-one really knows what DRM means in this unit but speculate it will be digital signing based on previous product.
:huh: DRM will probably be to protect downloads from being copied to a new card or played on a different machine and boxed preloaded cards from being copied to a new card.
:eek: But it may or may not also be used to restrict the playability of media such as music / movies in a similar way to itunes.
:ph34r: Companies may refuse to develop games unless drm is in place ( only reason it is good - more commercial games / software )
:( DRM can become more restrictive in the future, denying me things I could do when I bought it ( as has been seen with TIVO and Ipod ).

So a little good, some bad, some awful, but nothing is certain.

It seems to me that if media companies can blackmail a company by saying we won't release games / media unless DRM is installed - then they can just follow up with well the DRM isn't restrictive enough and continue applying the pressure like with TIVO and Ipod removing value from my device after I bought it.

And they will, that is what they do.
TIVO now has a broadcast flag that TIVO don't seem to control - despite said flag being struck down for broadcast TV. i.e. they didn't have to do it, they were forced.
Same with iPod, same with itunes.

So it seems to me that DRM is a foot in the door that will be used to leverage more restrictions turning a device that could change everything into something that I eventually don't bother buying batteries for.

If companies don't want to develop (or maybe just port) stuff to an open platform without making it closed - then well they can go stick their heads in a pig.

Now everyone loves MAME, you want to play arcade classics no longer available anywhere. Woo Hoo. But do you own the original cabinet / game board ? No, well then strictly speaking you shouldn't be playing that ROM -- but MAME don't do DRM so you can.

OK sure everything'll be be cracked anyhoo, but suppose I'm using my paypal account on a gp2x web browser with a wifi SD card and the virus in the cracked soft is sending all my cash to the Russian Mafia?

So this is a very big issue. IMHO Cory is right to be concerned as this platform seemed like a paradigm shift.
I understand peoples love for this device and feeling defensive but witness Cory's original reaction, he instantly wanted one real bad, it what geeks everywhere have been waiting for.
IMO Cory is no fool, he thinks about DRM a lot, I think it is important to listen to what he has to say and perhaps this perfect machine can be saved.

Wow I thought hardware, opensource, totally hackable homebrew heaven, the ultimate device.
A great and long lasting community will form, everything will be done on these boxen, Keyboards will be added, wifi sd will be added, web browsers, net sniffers, games, python, Woot w00t woot. This one is a keeper, everyday it gp32_console will do more.

B) This was like before sony bought MGM; this was like when you got the wiring diagram for stuff in the back of the manual; like GNU Linux - this was the future. :rolleyes:

People will invest their time writing drivers, hacking on extra devices, contributing to the platform, adding value -!- but not if they can't be assured it won't be taken away from them. This is the power of the GPL, this is why Linux exists, folks pitch in because it can't be taken away, shared labour, shared rewards.

Then I saw about the DRM and it could mean that all that promise may never happen, freedom was sacrificed for some commercial titles.

Bow to the community and gain everything :D ( this is how Linux and MAME came about )
or
Bow to DRM and get a few titles :(

It is a stark choice but a very real one.

IMHO DRM will kill this device.
and that would be sad as it is the coolest thing I have seen in a decade.

The DRM issue must be clarified at the highest level ASAP and if it exists then a powerful lobby must form and destroy it before it destroys the Gp2X.

Besides, many people do the right thing, customers should be treated as friends not potential criminals.

People share, people buy, people write, people give, enforced scarcity is not the way to build community (big community = big market = incentive to produce)

jMHz

Really this needs to be cleared up,
 
No major linux apps currently support DRM so dont expect to be able to play drm'd videos/music on the gp2x, let alone have the drm ruin the gp2x. It is pretty much only there to stop the copying of commercial titles
 
Craigx (offical UK distributer) has said that it is only there for commercial apps and games. And if I remember correctly, he gets his information from GPH. He has also done a field trip to their haedquarters.

It wont affect Homebrew (since its free anyway)
It wont affect Media (we rip our own stuff dont we?)
I cant see it affecting Linux (is it even possible?)

If I am wrong about this I will eat my words.

edit: Ok, I am partially wrong about this:
http://www.gpx2.com/support/support_sugest...=01&chk=&direc=
 
ldpm posted on Sep 22 2005 at 08:12 AM said:
Alpha2 posted on Sep 22 2005 at 05:07 AM said:
prehaps you like to tell me how I'm wrong in that statement because I can't actually see that.

From earlier in this thread:"Yeah we get he dosen't like DRM but it dosent change the fact that having it on the GP2X dosent change anything, except the ability to play pirated content like music and movies that frankly would have been cracked long before it even gets to the system..."

You seem to be saying rather explicitly here that there will be DRM to restrict music piracy, though you don't say what form. Perhaps you meant that, there will be no native iTunes player, no native audible.com player, etc, and that a lack of those might be seen as DRM since people can legally buy a tune in iTunes and then not be able to play it on their new gp2x. But, if that's what you meant, the statement was inaccurate, because you assert that the presence of DRM on the gp2x would change something, which of course is not true. If you meant that you thought there would be some other DRM that would prevent you from, say, watching an episode of the Sopranos after it got broadcast flagged, well, the other folks here seem to disagree with you. That's what I mean when I say your statement was wrong.

Okay I'll except your reasoning.

Right now there's a lot of fear on both sides about the release, the some people in the GP32 commnunity want it to explode and be twice what their last system was yet they don't konw for sure if it will, then various others are either content with PSPs or just arnt convinced the 2X is as good as it's being set up to be so the slightest bit of misinformation is going to be attacked by the Pro-GP2X side. and at the same time those people will feel like the other side is exploiting that. System wars 101.

This machine was developed by people who's last machine gathered a truely loyal following by being a device that let them create things that no other handheld let them do without any substantial hinderance and it had a form of DRM as well. There's no reason their new system would force any worse of a restriction. If microsoft can't build a PC that stops you from playing emulators, most kinda of digital music and a wide range of video formats then neither can a little korean hardware manufacturer that made most of its money in the last 2 years from homebrew lovers.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
*sigh*

At this point I'm just exhausted by this topic. It's going nowhere.

The GP32 veterans here know what the DRM will mean on GP2X (exactly what Craig said). All this paranoia is mainly from people who are newbies to this scene, and seem unwilling to believe the answers they're being given by community leaders, gurus and veterans.

Wanna be paranoid about the DRM, go ahead. I know what DRM will mean on GP2X and I'll be enjoying my unit whether or not these folks buy one.

IMHO DRM will kill this device.
and that would be sad as it is the coolest thing I have seen in a decade.

The GP32 didn't die from securamax. <_<

You know, maybe when you're a complete newb to a scene, you shouldn't come parading into our forums telling us the sky is falling when we put the damn roof up.

The GP2X isn't gonna be "killed" by DRM. Frankly the BoingBoing guy clearly doesn't know jack about the GP32 scene, doesn't know anything about GamePark, and doesn't want to listen to the community that has been here for several years already. You've all been told exactly how the DRM will be used and why it's there in the first place - that really is all there is to say. There are no big scary plans to use the DRM for anything more than what's been said.

I also saw some BoingBoing readers posting on the GP2X suggestions forum that they want a "non-DRM" version of the GP2X, and that they will never buy something with any form of DRM. Well it's not gonna happen, so move on if you feel that strongly about 3 little letters. The GP32 scene existed without people from BoingBoing, and we'll exist with the GP2X as well.

I'm starting the really miss the relative obscurity we had with the GP32. -_-
 
Listen to the guy above me, please. :) ...and read the GP2X FAQ. The sky is not falling. You only have to buy DRMed software if you WANT to. There will be freeware media players as well, since this is an open-source device.
 
Prophet posted on Sep 23 2005 at 01:30 AM said:
I'm starting the miss the relative obscurity we had with the GP32. -_-

Yeah I know what you mean. It is a double edged sword though. On one hand it is nice to be small and obscure, kind of off of the radar of whiny kids and lamers.

On the other hand because the community is small you may have to wait ages for updates to games and emus. And many projects get abandoned and there is no one to take over (like open SNES 9x).

I guess a happy medium is best.


About DRM if these guys don't want to believ us that is ok. In 1 month the unit will come out and then there will be nothing else to say as all rumours will be squashed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
<_< No-one really knows what DRM means in this unit but speculate it will be digital signing based on previous product.

Gamepark has already said it will be as GP32.

:huh: DRM will probably be to protect downloads from being copied to a new card or played on a different machine and boxed preloaded cards from being copied to a new card.

Yes that is what it is for COMMERCIAL game downloads.

:eek: But it may or may not also be used to restrict the playability of media such as music / movies in a similar way to itunes.

You can play any movies and MP3s that you rip, or ones that you get from the warez mule ;)

:ph34r: Companies may refuse to develop games unless drm is in place ( only reason it is good - more commercial games / software )

That is the only reason it is there. see above again.

:( DRM can become more restrictive in the future, denying me things I could do when I bought it ( as has been seen with TIVO and Ipod ).

No. The GP2X is not dependant on firmware updates such as the other devices. You could buy a GP2x and NEVER update the firmware, that is up to you. The last device from them (GP32) has "secumax enabled" on the box. Now look at this community, does it look DRM strangled? It is only used for commercial games.

...Really this needs to be cleared up,


If you guys don't believe it yet, ok fine be sceptical. But please don't go off half cocked on some site somewhere spreading false rumors at this time. Call off the dogs until the unit is released. If it is DRMed up THEN start whining.
 
Digital Awakening posted on Sep 21 2005 at 08:09 PM said:
People don't like to pay. Usually that means they don't have a decent sallery because if they had they could just buy whatever they wanted.

Its not that i dont want to pay just that i prefer using emulators. I have a decent salary but that doesnt mean i'm gonna spend tons of it on GP32 games when i have other priorities. I was brought up on games in the 80's so i tend to solely pay those on emulators.

I've paid for emulators before but any new games for the GP32 not really interested. Theyre either a re-hash of some classic game or some game for kids.

You seem to think once you have a decent salary people will be buying games left and right
 
Last edited by a moderator:
posted OFFICIALLY on gpx2.com:


/ NO / TITLE / WRITER / DATE / COUNT


17 Regarding DRM admin 2005-09-23 62

Dear Consumers


There have been many complaints about the DRM function with the Gp2x so let me explain exactly the purpose for the DRM

We will only be using DRM for commercial games that we distribute through our website

DRM will not effect anything else, it will be used the same way as the Gp32

There is nothing to be scared of!

Best regards,

Anna
 
x68000 posted on Sep 23 2005 at 08:46 AM said:
posted OFFICIALLY on gpx2.com:


/ NO / TITLE / WRITER / DATE / COUNT


17 Regarding DRM admin 2005-09-23 62

Dear Consumers


There have been many complaints about the DRM function with the Gp2x so let me explain exactly the purpose for the DRM

We will only be using DRM for commercial games that we distribute through our website

DRM will not effect anything else, it will be used the same way as the Gp32

There is nothing to be scared of!

Best regards,

Anna



CASE CLOSED !!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top