Groepaz: No, I gave up on being disappointed by that :=P It's sad in general that there is so little scene activities besides pc stuff that I can take seriously. To be honest, there are still more serious c64 sceners than I can spot in any other scene. (mind you, I don't consider rather trivial games or ports or linux or anything along those lines a serious scene production). what I am really disappointed about is that so few ppl really try or even care to understand the machine to it's fullest. I'm a bit old fashioned in that respect, just like on the c64 I want to do everything myself, without using any third party sdk or libraries. (that "drugtro" demo was pretty much an exception here) for that matter I have much more respect to some beginner who makes a simple thing 100% on his own than someone who creates a fancy game using a 3rd party sdk. that's what divides coders from ordinary programmers in my book, the coders care for how things were done, the programmers just care for the final product. </rant> :=P