Our New Machine, Pandora

Should this thread die?

  • Yes, kill it now!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Maybe move it to off-topic?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, let it live until its natural death!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dave, just stick with your GP2x. It does everything you want. And Snes is pretty good on the PSP and the GP2x.

You are just trying to shout louder than the rest to get your way. Of course we want to emulate the farthest we can go! That includes N64. End of story! You just have no idea about business! Craig seems too. A N64 emu would be a great selling point.

@Zottd, so pleased you are on board!!!

199 is fine by me! I am holding off getting a n800 for this.
 
God Ginrai said:
I have a question for the FPSers who want a stick on the right side:

Why does it have to be on the right side? Can't you use an analog on the left side for aim, and the ABXY as WASD? (The Dpad would then take up any functions that those buttons normally took up)

-God Ginrai
well, on a PC you do it the same way. walk with WASD on the left and aim with the mouse right.
if th e analog aming nub is on the right side, you can use your right thumb to aim and at least for right handed peopple, its easier to aim precisely.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
all this debate(!) about what controls and where got me thinking- what about a modular approach?

i'll try and explain this without pictures!

imagine the new console with two removable 'units' on either end that slot into docking 'bays'. - these are inter-changable for different control schemes depending on what your doing on the machine.

some ideas off the top of my head:

left side:
dpad and analog unit
dpad and buttons (for davec!)
movie controls(play,pause,ff, etc.)
trackball
half a keyboard? (solves the keyboard issue?)

right side:
4 button
6 button
button and analog
other half of keyboard?

craig could supply standard 'units' with the machine that cover the basic requirements, and also sell additional accessory units that are tuned to a specific task.
in addition, in the true spirit of the open nature, craig could sell bare 'unit' casings so those who wish to could make there own controls (example: make your own with your choice of retro console d-pad (and so avoid patent issues!))

rattling this off at work- so does anyone understand where im going with this?

thoughts?
 
chunkyktr said:
all this debate(!) about what controls and where got me thinking- what about a modular approach?

i'll try and explain this without pictures!

imagine the new console with two removable 'units' on either end that slot into docking 'bays'. - these are inter-changable for different control schemes depending on what your doing on the machine.

some ideas off the top of my head:

left side:
dpad and analog unit
dpad and buttons (for davec!)
movie controls(play,pause,ff, etc.)
trackball
half a keyboard? (solves the keyboard issue?)

right side:
4 button
6 button
button and analog
other half of keyboard?

craig could supply standard 'units' with the machine that cover the basic requirements, and also sell additional accessory units that are tuned to a specific task.
in addition, in the true spirit of the open nature, craig could sell bare 'unit' casings so those who wish to could make there own controls (example: make your own with your choice of retro console d-pad (and so avoid patent issues!))

rattling this off at work- so does anyone understand where im going with this?

thoughts?
I'm not convinced of the feasibility of your idea. Besides, we the devs really like it when we use in our apps some function that we know everyone has. Therefore, we'll be hesitant to use an analog stick if it's optional, for example.

By the way, does, with the OMAP SoC, PS2 emulation sound even a little feasible for certain games? I mean you know, the GP2X is fairly underpowered, mainly when it comes to 3D, yet we could get to something with PSX emulation, so I'm seriously wondering how far we could go with PS2 or GameCube emulation *ducks*
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A_SN said:
By the way, does, with the OMAP SoC, PS2 emulation sound even a little feasible for certain games? I mean you know, the GP2X is fairly underpowered, mainly when it comes to 3D, yet we could get to something with PSX emulation, so I'm seriously wondering how far we could go with PS2 or GameCube emulation *ducks*
I'm no where near technical enough to be able to know for sure but PS2 emulation seems a little too much. That won't even run properly on my regular PC (4200+ X2, in need of a proper 3d card though I admit). It would be nice though. I'm also hoping for a DS emulator that will run some kanji dictionaries.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Exophase said:
One reason everyone wants N64 emulation is because it isn't being done on any other handhelds except PSP where it isn't really done at acceptable speeds for more than a small number of games (and even that's debatable).

Kind of like the way the GP2X does PSX emulation, huh? :p
 
Last edited by a moderator:
DaveC said:
Well the analog WOULD replace any kind of buttons that could be used for MAME type arcade stuff. Playing 320 high stuff on a 480 high screen would result in a fractionally scaled small image making them not worth playing.
Boohoo. Whoever said it'd be possible to vertically orient the thing anyway? Besides, you could still fit buttons in that region, depending on how you did it. You just happen to think emulating vertical MAME cabinets is more important than whatever benefits analog could give you. A lot of people would disagree with you.

DaveC said:
For some reason though as you said this will have 3D and it seems like that is all everyone wants for some odd reason. I guess Xbox, PS2, Xbox 360, PS3, DS, PSP, PC etc aren't enough for 3D. We need everything to be 3D oriented I guess. I mean running n64 and a Quake port is all that matters right?
You're one of those people who knows how to really force a bad argument (and do it over and over again). Pretty much every console/handheld ever made has some kind of support for 2D graphics, why do we need more of that?

Why this 3D has potential:

- Modern 3D acceleration allows better than 2D acceleration than any 2D accelerator I'm aware of
- Enables better emulation of PS1, the most popular platform ever made
- People are actually interested in making 3D games
- It's better than the 3D on any other handheld we have. Especially DS. That kinda sucks.
- Not a lot of people are doing 3D homebrew for PSP anyway, may as well try a platform people actually do homebrew games for.

But of course running vertically oriented MAME games so that they take up as much of the screen as possible is all that matters right?


TheMinder said:
There's more than a couple of things that are confusing me ( I've probably mentioned some of them before so apologies for any repeats ).

QUOTE
I fully expect craig to make a machine that isn't just costing what people expect to pay for a machine that does such and such, but something where you really get what you pay for.
If I'm reading that correctly then that's surely a fallacy. As others have already said ultimately this is being done as a business venture and so surely profit has to be one of the main driving forces behind it. There's nothing wrong with that by the way, it's just strange for board members here to try to take some sort of ownership over it as a "community project" when it's actual a commercial venture.

Secondly, I know the thread was put up and it did the job of getting some interest and making a long and active read but are board members not getting a false impression of the importance of their input into the whole thing ?

Speccing a machine to suit say 100 people who have replied in the thread is hardly going to happen as it would make no business sense at all, and surely the market being aimed at has got to be wider than just members of this board ?

The thread would strongly suggest that some people like SQUIDGE for example are being utilised in a professional capacity behind the scenes which makes complete sense (I chose SQUIDGE semi-randomly but could have gone for maybe SKEEZIX as a professional developer etc etc) , and if a business man like Craig (and whoever else is backing) has got professional people involved then I find it hard to believe the machine isn't fully specced out and designed already without relying on the input of board members, who let's face it could all still be at school.


There's a huge difference between "doing something for profit" and charging as much money as you think people will be willing to pay. Of course the market is broader than this board, but that doesn't mean that the opinions here don't represent a realistic sampling of that market. It's a lot better than the kind of input companies tend to get when designing a machine (which is basically nothing). At the very least gp32x users should reasonably accurately represent the tens of thousands of GP2X owners.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
chunkyktr said:
all this debate(!) about what controls and where got me thinking- what about a modular approach?

rattling this off at work- so does anyone understand where im going with this?

thoughts?
Seems rather similar to the ps2 control pad with detachable button blocks.

Hopefully someone can find a link to it because it's eluding me at the moment. :angry:

EDIT: Found it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lurkio said:
Seems rather similar to the ps2 control pad with detachable button blocks.

Hopefully someone can find a link to it because it's eluding me at the moment. :angry:

EDIT: Found it.


Looks like a nice concept, but its probably quite hard to engineer and probably also more expensive then a fixed stick....
But i would love something like that!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
DaveC said:
The rest of the community wants N64? Why?
No, I don't need an N64 Emulator on an Handheld because My PC can emulate the N64 far better, in High Res and without the ugly PAL-TV blurry washroom image. :)
Only reason for an 64emu on the new Handheld would be for the WOW effect and for the impression of other people. (OK, this would be an good Reason of course :D )

I had played Various N64 Games on the Console, included Starfox which is an impressive Game (and the only Game I finished :lol: ). Goldeneye was Great and Turok not bad. (But I would call it "Fog Hunter Turok" or "Turok - Man of the Mist" :lol: )
Problem with Egoshooters on N64 for me are my PC roots. I cant play Goldeneye & Co. very well without Mouse and Keyboard. Egoshooters via Gamepad are a nightmare and especially N64 Shooters had a strange bad and slow control, everything was so delayed and "smoothed", some kind of indirect etc. Brrrr....

Yes N64 had other great Games but remember, many of them are most funny in Multiplayer (like Smash Bros. ) and this would Require Multiplayer capacitys of the Emulator. I doubt, this will be easy to code for the WiFi Feature of the New Console. (Perfect Dark has good Bots for Single Player, thank god ) By the way we shouldn't forget, AT FIRST we need an Emulator for N64!!! :lol: Look how long it has taken to code an SNES or GBA Emu for the GP2X and I can imagine that an mature N64 Emulator is a whole bunch harder to code even with Hardware 3D Support of the new Handheld...

Well, maybe this Analog/Digital Discussion will end, when Craigix and Gang says what Controlls the Handheld will have - and WHERE they are. :) I remember my (posted by others before) Dual Design with D-Pad and hole in the middle for attachable Analog-Stick for seperate analog Controll. The best solution I think:
analogdigitalareajk0.png
 
Last edited by a moderator:
God Ginrai said:
I have a question for the FPSers who want a stick on the right side:

Why does it have to be on the right side? Can't you use an analog on the left side for aim, and the ABXY as WASD? (The Dpad would then take up any functions that those buttons normally took up)

-God Ginrai
I prefer the movements in game to be controlled by left hand and aiming by right hand in fps games. I think most people are used to using their mouse hand for aiming and their keyboard hand for movement in fps games. I think a control layout that would suit N64 would be optimal for fps games on a handheld and would allow for the option of reversing the movement/aiming controls if you prefer to play left handed too. I kind of like the idea of having the d-pad and buttons so they can be mapped for extra functions in certain games and apps.

Still, we know very little about the device and its design and capabilities until craigix decides on a soc and is ready to give everyone more information, but its entertaining to read different ideas and throw some out there as well.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
TheMinder said:
There's more than a couple of things that are confusing me ( I've probably mentioned some of them before so apologies for any repeats ).

If I'm reading that correctly then that's surely a fallacy. As others have already said ultimately this is being done as a business venture and so surely profit has to be one of the main driving forces behind it. There's nothing wrong with that by the way, it's just strange for board members here to try to take some sort of ownership over it as a "community project" when it's actual a commercial venture.

Secondly, I know the thread was put up and it did the job of getting some interest and making a long and active read but are board members not getting a false impression of the importance of their input into the whole thing ?

Speccing a machine to suit say 100 people who have replied in the thread is hardly going to happen as it would make no business sense at all, and surely the market being aimed at has got to be wider than just members of this board ?

The thread would strongly suggest that some people like SQUIDGE for example are being utilised in a professional capacity behind the scenes which makes complete sense (I chose SQUIDGE semi-randomly but could have gone for maybe SKEEZIX as a professional developer etc etc) , and if a business man like Craig (and whoever else is backing) has got professional people involved then I find it hard to believe the machine isn't fully specced out and designed already without relying on the input of board members, who let's face it could all still be at school.
Well said. Design by committee doesn't work, and I'm hoping that CraigIX knows that. This thread's just been for fun, a lot of people throwing ideas and fantasies around. I doubt that he's looking at this as a real design resource.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
kanzlr said:
God Ginrai said:
I have a question for the FPSers who want a stick on the right side:

Why does it have to be on the right side? Can't you use an analog on the left side for aim, and the ABXY as WASD? (The Dpad would then take up any functions that those buttons normally took up)

-God Ginrai
well, on a PC you do it the same way. walk with WASD on the left and aim with the mouse right.
if th e analog aming nub is on the right side, you can use your right thumb to aim and at least for right handed peopple, its easier to aim precisely.


Why not just program FPSs to not use the shoulder buttons and draw the screen upside-down?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
saehn said:
TheMinder said:
There's more than a couple of things that are confusing me ( I've probably mentioned some of them before so apologies for any repeats ).

If I'm reading that correctly then that's surely a fallacy. As others have already said ultimately this is being done as a business venture and so surely profit has to be one of the main driving forces behind it. There's nothing wrong with that by the way, it's just strange for board members here to try to take some sort of ownership over it as a "community project" when it's actual a commercial venture.

Secondly, I know the thread was put up and it did the job of getting some interest and making a long and active read but are board members not getting a false impression of the importance of their input into the whole thing ?

Speccing a machine to suit say 100 people who have replied in the thread is hardly going to happen as it would make no business sense at all, and surely the market being aimed at has got to be wider than just members of this board ?

The thread would strongly suggest that some people like SQUIDGE for example are being utilised in a professional capacity behind the scenes which makes complete sense (I chose SQUIDGE semi-randomly but could have gone for maybe SKEEZIX as a professional developer etc etc) , and if a business man like Craig (and whoever else is backing) has got professional people involved then I find it hard to believe the machine isn't fully specced out and designed already without relying on the input of board members, who let's face it could all still be at school.
Well said. Design by committee doesn't work, and I'm hoping that CraigIX knows that. This thread's just been for fun, a lot of people throwing ideas and fantasies around. I doubt that he's looking at this as a real design resource.

I don't look at this thread as design by committee and I don't think Craigix does that either. That would be stupid. We're not designers. We're consumers. But there is nothing wrong with listening to consumers for ideas and inspiration or sounding out your own ideas. That's not design by committee. It's market research. This whole thread is basically free market research for this device.

And it's not just for fun. If Craigix didn't read this thread he might not have found out about the OMAP3430. And if he didn't think it was important he wouldn't ask for opinions:

"We have indeed listened to all the ideas over the last 2 years."
"We are enjoying reading your thoughts so keep them coming."
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Eolair said:
I don't look at this thread as design by committee and I don't think Craigix does that either. That would be stupid. We're not designers. We're consumers. But there is nothing wrong with listening to consumers for ideas and inspiration or sounding out your own ideas. That's not design by committee. It's market research. This whole thread is basically free market research for this device.

And it's not just for fun. If Craigix didn't read this thread he might not have found out about the OMAP3430. And if he didn't think it was important he wouldn't ask for opinions:

"We have indeed listened to all the ideas over the last 2 years."
"We are enjoying reading your thoughts so keep them coming."
You're right, there's a balance between market research and design by committee. As long as it's kept, we might wind up with a great machine released by a timely date.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Eolair said:
And it's not just for fun. If Craigix didn't read this thread he might not have found out about the OMAP3430.

More to the point, he might still be intent on using the MMSP2+. *shudder*

The discussions on this forum, aside from prompting a serious evaluation of the i.MX31, also attracted the attention of a TI employee (jadon). If not for his input, we all might still think the OMAP would be impossible to use because of TI's rather steep terms of purchase (Craigix obviously already knew about the device but also knew of these terms and had written it off for that reason, and he told us as much). If jadon can bend TI's terms to enable the use of the OMAP3430 in this device, this thread has been a key factor in Craigix's project indeed, even to the point of significantly increasing the possible range of uses and the lifespan of the device. I see that as no small advantage and I appreciate the efforts made by this community as well as the willingness of Craigix and his team to listen to our (sometimes strange) ideas.

I wish the dev team the best of luck, I hope the OMAP will be a feasible choice. I also hope for a good controller layout to be selected and implemented, a good manufacturer and quality components to be chosen to ensure a build quality that will justify the £199 hole in my wallet.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
atomicthumbs said:
Interesting info: the Gamecube does 12 million polygons per second. How many does the GPU in the OMAP do again?

Also, enough arguing.
Unfortunately it's unknown because we don't know which PowerVR SGX core the OMAP3430 is using (Jadon said he would be happy to tell us the correct performance numbers once the information is public).

But there's not even a working full speed GC emulator for PC anyway so forget it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top