You know what the main reason the community's up in flames is?

[Blue Protoman]

The "n00bs", as we call them. Someone here once put it very well; "newbs" are not total idiots, while "n00bs" are. Yes, our uproarious reaction has not helped. But reaction to what? People who started something. Are they stupid, uninformed, or trolling? Can't say, not gonna bother trying. And throughout the weeks, people have gotten more and more tired of these "n00bs", to the point of anger. (I am not going to name anybody.) If you eat the same cereal for breakfast each morning for a year, wouldn't you be really upset or angry if someone bought you a week's supply of it at the end of that year?


These "n00bs" are often doubters, immediately tackling the Pandora, comparing it to the likes of Android phones or whatever. The ones who haven't ordered get turned away. The ones who have cancel. (Again, not naming anyone in particular.) Slow progress behind the scenes hasn't helped either; any news often gets lost in the shitstorm.


So what's my proposed solution? Write up a pinned "Why the Pandora is the way it is" thread, and flash it brightly for all to see. Simple. Instead of getting up in arms, people can simply redirect people to this. (It has to be on the forums, not enough people read the wiki.) Sources will be cited by the best people to cite them from. (Who would you rather take an argument about the Pandora from; Joe Schmoe or WizardStan?) Such as this (this is just an example, there might be more to it);


Why is the Pandora's processor old? My iPhone is more powerful!


It was designed to be released in 2008 (it was top of the line then). However, numerous delays and setbacks (none of which were the fault of OpenPandora) pushed it back two years.


Why the delays?


The original nub company went bankrupt and died, the bank froze Craig's account preventing him from taking much of the preorder money, the financial crisis in 2008 greatly increased lead times on electronics parts... (etc, etc.)


The thread will remain a locked single post so as not to clutter it with discussion and remove focus from the first post. People can contribute to it (perhaps via another thread) with their own reasonable arguments. As for blatant fanboyism ("UPGRADE TO PREMIUM!!!!!!!!!! LOL"), they can just point users to this thread instead of offering uninsightful advice.


In addition, we'll flash the link to the stalker nice and brightly as well. Again, point people here to make their own discoveries.


This I believe will cool things down a bit. Calm and sincere reasoning has already saved at least one guy from cancelling; why not others?

 

[cinaed666]

Simply put: yes.

 

[DavidBowman]

Agreed. Another thing to mention to them would be that although the hardware isn't exactly cutting edge any longer, it has already been demonstrated to be capable of everything that was promised and then some.


People aren't buying this simply because it is powerful. The capability hasn't diminished simply because it has aged a bit or because other devices have cropped up since 2008.


Something really important to point out to them is just how awesome a platform's software can be when all of the developers for it are able to target a single hardware set. Just look what has been done with PlayStation and Nintendo 64 emulation.

 

[Prometheus]

I'm unsure about this. From my perspective it often ends up looking like the main problem actually is the way that some folks behave.


The fact is: You *are* going to get people new to all of this - new to emulation, new to embedded hardware that doesn't come with a line of software that helps to make more money back, new to Linux, and so on and so forth - and even in here they're being slurred with playground-like names and accusations of them "starting something".


The way the community as a whole behaves is representative of something, I think. Trying to "convert" people is not an answer in my book - and my apologies if I've misunderstood the purpose of this as that, it just very much reminds me of the "cults" that spring up around certain electronics that some around here claim to despise.

 

[Blue Protoman]

The purpose is to not give us a reason to flare up. If someone decides to jump on the bandwagon, then that's just a bonus.

 

[Caine]

First of all, referring to people as newbs or n00bs is disrespectful in my opinion. Everybody is new at something. The fact that you have to explain the difference already indicates that they are not perceived the same by everyone. Better to avoid it altogether lest you unintentionally insult someone.


It is very common for new members to not read existing threads and to start a new thread of their own regardless of the existence of many similar threads. The best way to counter this is to greet and welcome them and point them in the right direction.


Now, this last part is important, but it gets tiring for long term members to type the same thing over and over again. The wiki is a good solution for this in my opinion. If certain points come up repeatedly, then create a wiki page for it and reply to new members with a link.

 

[craigix]

I'd not even noticed anything, you sure it isn't just the same select few people causing a fuss about nothing?

 

[CAZMIESTER]

Another problem is that the pandora is not a mass produced item, people new too the emulation scene here expect so much the hype that has kept this system going is alot bigger than people probably realise and unfortunately the emulation these people were expecting has not materialised(JUST TO MAKE THIS CLEAR THIS IS NOT A FLAMING OF OP OR THE COMMUNITY).I have followed this device for the good space of 2 and a half years and what has been released is as good as any other handheld.BUT and its a big but the pandora was always put about as the most powerful handheld on the market and probably due to this people expected so much more i really hope this negative view dies down and the pandora gets releases it trully deserves.

 

[Blue Protoman]

I didn't mean any harm in that aspect; someone else put it that way, I'm just paraphrasing.


And this link you speak of would be the thread I propose!

I'd not even noticed anything, you sure it isn't just the same select few people causing a fuss about nothing?

There have been like, three or four "cancelled" threads in the span of the last week. At least one cancellation stemmed from poor treatment by the community. The rest from impatience. I guess explaining the long wait could be part of this new thread, too.

 

[Timstertoo]

First of all, referring to people as newbs or n00bs is disrespectful in my opinion. Everybody is new at something. The fact that you have to explain the difference already indicates that they are not perceived the same by everyone. Better to avoid it altogether lest you unintentionally insult someone.


It is very common for new members to not read existing threads and to start a new thread of their own regardless of the existence of many similar threads. The best way to counter this is to greet and welcome them and point them in the right direction.


Now, this last part is important, but it gets tiring for long term members to type the same thing over and over again. The wiki is a good solution for this in my opinion. If certain points come up repeatedly, then create a wiki page for it and reply to new members with a link.

We just need a newbie forum where people can live when they first hear of the Pandora. The more knowledgeble members that don't mind answering the same, or a variation of the same, question every now and again can take care of the replies. Maybe a couple can volunteer to make sure questions get answered friendly.


At the top of that forum a FAQ should be stickied and someone, Blue Protoman perhaps, gets put in charge of making sure all the questions that pop up regularly are answered in there. That way at a certain point most recurring threads can be replied to with a link to the FAQ and a lock making sure it fades away fast.


Anything popping up elsewhere should be moved to the newbie forum by a mod and other members will only have to show a short time of restraint knowing it will be moved soon enough.


Everybody happy


edit: spelling

 

[Blue Protoman]

I'll be in charge of this thread, then. Start throwing ideas (and preferably citations) at me!

 

[DavidBowman]

I'm unsure about this. From my perspective it often ends up looking like the main problem actually is the way that some folks behave.


The fact is: You *are* going to get people new to all of this - new to emulation, new to embedded hardware that doesn't come with a line of software that helps to make more money back, new to Linux, and so on and so forth - and even in here they're being slurred with playground-like names and accusations of them "starting something".


The way the community as a whole behaves is representative of something, I think. Trying to "convert" people is not an answer in my book - and my apologies if I've misunderstood the purpose of this as that, it just very much reminds me of the "cults" that spring up around certain electronics that some around here claim to despise.

You're not wrong, Prometheus. But perhaps such a thread might mitigate at least a small percentage of this sort of occurrence.


What is the alternative? More active moderation? I agree that there is a problem.

 

[MarioPandio]

I have to side with Caine and Prometheus here (although a clearer, pinned, locked thread of basic details will do no harm (thoguht we had one already)) as I haven´t even seen any newb/noobs here that have caused any need to get flared up. On the other forum some poor guy had been sent there looking for a Dosbox only machine by accident and hadnt read up before he asked some innocent questions. I thought he got treated okay to start with but Prometheus and Wizardstan were correct to feel he´d been chased off in the end.


The only poor behaviour around here is from or own ranks, even lynching each other nowadays. On the whole these are very mature and polite friendly forums for anyone, where the only grieviances are aired at the delays the project has endured. It would be nice to see less of that aswell but its understandable. Kicking people on the way out isn`t.


I agree with Blue Protoman on making some further point to this type places but really there is a ton of them already and sometimes people will still just need to have some time spent on being nice to them when they disuss the Pandora(?) on these forums. Being civil isnt a crime...yet

 

[Timstertoo]

I'm unsure about this. From my perspective it often ends up looking like the main problem actually is the way that some folks behave.


The fact is: You *are* going to get people new to all of this - new to emulation, new to embedded hardware that doesn't come with a line of software that helps to make more money back, new to Linux, and so on and so forth - and even in here they're being slurred with playground-like names and accusations of them "starting something".


The way the community as a whole behaves is representative of something, I think. Trying to "convert" people is not an answer in my book - and my apologies if I've misunderstood the purpose of this as that, it just very much reminds me of the "cults" that spring up around certain electronics that some around here claim to despise.

You're not wrong, Prometheus. But perhaps such a thread might mitigate at least a small percentage of this sort of occurrence.


What is the alternative? More active moderation? I agree that there is a problem.

It needs to be a forum, not a thread.


Get the newbies a place to live in and ask newbie questions. Like one of these magazines for new parents or so that just retouch and recycle the same articles every 2 years or so as their clientele refreshes.


Out of the way of people who can't help themselves and must react abbrasive when the might as well just ignore it. If they start being obnoxious in the newbie forum warn them and by recurrence ban them.

 

[Blue Protoman]

I suppose a new forum could work, though I still want my thread (I've already started on it). It could be pinned onto that new forum.

 

[pykus]

Yeah I'm going to agree with you, Prometheus. While I think the idea of a "Why is Pandora the way it is?" thread is a good one, I do hesitate to say that the community being "up in flames" is because of that. What you're pointing out is a significant factor as far as I can tell from my short tenure here, but I've been around too many on-line communities to believe it's the only reason, or even to suggest that its dominant to the point of dwarfing anything else.


First and foremost, I do totally agree with you on a lot of what you say. I've seen enough comments from people that break my heart because they were so close to something I know to be great that I'm sad for them to have missed out. The thing about that is that to have waited as long as many of the people here have waited has got to be trying for anybody, and even a hardcore fanboy would be hard pressed to maintain the kind of optimism and excitement that this has generated. It takes ENERGY to be stay excited about something. It costs every person something to stay with it, and at some point the waiting mkes it no longer worth it for some people.


I haven't been around long enough to get peeved at people, but I'd imagine it's mroe likely the result of the combination of anxiousness, a general tendency for people to adopt a "sour grapes" mentality when they bail out, the tendency for everyone else to take their words personally since it ends up bashing something they actually CARE about, and the universal n00b/troll element that exists no matter where you go.


In the end I think the best answer for those of us who want to nurture this community is open and friendly acceptance. We're here for people to join us if they'd like, but when we start judging people's reasons it becomes impossible for us as individuals to be the kind of people we want to have here in the first place, and if we can be the kind of people that we want to hang around with, we'll end up attracting the people we want to hang around with to join us. There's no quick or easy answer. Quick means harsh, and easy means you don't care. To persue it like that, I assert, would inherently change that which you are attempting to preserve.


I do think we have a culture that as a whole wants something "polished" with a "guaranteed delivery date", and that is indeed not what the Pandora is. That the magnificent attributes of this product have attracted people who would normally not be interested in something other than an iPod or a PSP (or any other mass market product backed by the fortunes of their creators, who sell so many of the same thing that they find it CHEAPER to replace products for nothing than to deal with the hassle of NOT replacing them) is a credit to the idea itself, and serves to illustrate its value. We can only decide whether to be frustrated and push these folks away as a result, or to give them the freedom to be however they are and simply leave the door open for them to change their minds.


The Pandora isn't something people are used to, and it shouldn't be. (At least not yet, anyway! )


This is just how it has to be for now.

 

[Prometheus]

It needs to be a forum, not a thread.


Get the newbies a place to live in and ask newbie questions. Like one of these magazines for new parents or so that just retouch and recycle the same articles every 2 years or so as their clientele refreshes.

This sounds like a very out-of-sight-out-of-mind "Let's keep the 'newbies' away from us 'real' Pandorians" sort of approach to me, I'm afraid. Segregation won't work, as I'm sure there will be many newcomers who feel that their questions fit better in General Talk. I can already foresee what will happen then - they'll get unpleasant responses telling them to "GTFO" of the place where the "real" Pandora community plays before there is time to move things (after all, we have lives too, and are not present 24/7 to do this), and the result will be exactly the same as it is now.

Out of the way of people who can't help themselves and must react abbrasive when the might as well just ignore it. If they start being obnoxious in the newbie forum warn them and by recurrence ban them.

With all due respect, the folks who can't help themselves could just as easily ignore such threads right here and right now. Why should we only crack down on those who behave in an obnoxious fashion in a specific place, but not in others? It doesn't strike me as very consistent.

 

[Blue Protoman]

They could ignore such threads, but will they? At least this way their responses will be this;

Check this thread out, it'll explain everything.

...rather than this;

Did you even bother to look at the damned site? It says right there! Do your research before you come here asking silly questions!

See the difference? I could probably go more extreme. I don't think cracking down on our own will do any good. Taking away our reason to crack down on anybody is much better.

 

[Prometheus]

They could ignore such threads, but will they? At least this way their responses will be this;

Check this thread out, it'll explain everything.

...rather than this;

Did you even bother to look at the damned site? It says right there! Do your research before you come here asking silly questions!

See the difference? I could probably go more extreme. I don't think cracking down on our own will do any good. Taking away our reason to crack down on anybody is much better.

But such responses will not change. They can *already* do what you suggest - there is already extant documentation to link to (yes, granted, it's not all in one overview, and I do agree that that would be a very useful thing to have! ) that would allow for this.

 

[DavidBowman]

Yeah I'm going to agree with you, Prometheus. While I think the idea of a "Why is Pandora the way it is?" thread is a good one, I do hesitate to say that the community being "up in flames" is because of that. What you're pointing out is a significant factor as far as I can tell from my short tenure here, but I've been around too many on-line communities to believe it's the only reason, or even to suggest that its dominant to the point of dwarfing anything else.First and foremost, I do totally agree with you on a lot of what you say. I've seen enough comments from people that break my heart because they were so close to something I know to be great that I'm sad for them to have missed out. The thing about that is that to have waited as long as many of the people here have waited has got to be trying for anybody, and even a hardcore fanboy would be hard pressed to maintain the kind of optimism and excitement that this has generated. It takes ENERGY to be stay excited about something. It costs every person something to stay with it, and at some point the waiting mkes it no longer worth it for some people.I haven't been around long enough to get peeved at people, but I'd imagine it's mroe likely the result of the combination of anxiousness, a general tendency for people to adopt a "sour grapes" mentality when they bail out, the tendency for everyone else to take their words personally since it ends up bashing something they actually CARE about, and the universal n00b/troll element that exists no matter where you go.In the end I think the best answer for those of us who want to nurture this community is open and friendly acceptance. We're here for people to join us if they'd like, but when we start judging people's reasons it becomes impossible for us as individuals to be the kind of people we want to have here in the first place, and if we can be the kind of people that we want to hang around with, we'll end up attracting the people we want to hang around with to join us. There's no quick or easy answer. Quick means harsh, and easy means you don't care. To persue it like that, I assert, would inherently change that which you are attempting to preserve.I do think we have a culture that as a whole wants something "polished" with a "guaranteed delivery date", and that is indeed not what the Pandora is. That the magnificent attributes of this product have attracted people who would normally not be interested in something other than an iPod or a PSP (or any other mass market product backed by the fortunes of their creators, who sell so many of the same thing that they find it CHEAPER to replace products for nothing than to deal with the hassle of NOT replacing them) is a credit to the idea itself, and serves to illustrate its value. We can only decide whether to be frustrated and push these folks away as a result, or to give them the freedom to be however they are and simply leave the door open for them to change their minds.The Pandora isn't something people are used to, and it shouldn't be. (At least not yet, anyway! )This is just how it has to be for now.

^ You sir, speak eloquently.