And now for something completely different (Keyboard Option)


Ok I think  I understand your advantages. But why are {} on normal keys instead of ()?  Shouldn't you swap those?
It's not just about the use frequency of a single key - but what keys it's normally used in conjunction with.  So - keys live with their nested sets.

I made the decision that () belong with the mathematical & calculator set - so they're available Pyra shifted with the rest of the primary numeric functions +-*/^.=() .

This nested sets idea that I'm running with is going to drive some people a bit nuts around 'why is key foo out and center while bar requires a Shift-key or Pyra-key to use?'  () are math functions to me - and belong with the math keys.  For using them outside of math (Typing for example), you would simply use the Pyra button as a shift with one thumb and tap the relevant key.  If you're doing math, you'll likely have Pyra-lock on.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ok I think  I understand your advantages. But why are {} on normal keys instead of ()?  Shouldn't you swap those?
It's not just about the use frequency of a single key - but what keys it's normally used in conjunction with.  So - keys live with their nested sets.

I made the decision that () belong with the mathematical & calculator set - so they're available Pyra shifted with the rest of the primary numeric functions +-*/^.=() .

This nested sets idea that I'm running with is going to drive some people a bit nuts around 'why is key foo out and center while bar requires a Shift-key or Pyra-key to use?'  () are math functions to me - and belong with the math keys.  For using them outside of math (Typing for example), you would simply use the Pyra button as a shift with one thumb and tap the relevant key.  If you're doing math, you'll likely have Pyra-lock on.
Ok while I understand the logic, people (normal people) are going to be using parenthesis (like this) when typing regular sentences far more often than they will be using advanced calculators.
 
Taking your feedback into account and that I realized I hated the single width centered space bar I came up with this:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c615065053fa3b2552d591958936be8f

Note:  There are now keys with symbols on shift+pyra+key.  These are easily accessible though as chording (mashing) both the shift and pyra with one thumb or the other should be easy.

The missing , character was added back in (oops that it was missing).

Note that there is a pair of keys (G,H) that are devoid of any additional pyra-shifted symbols.  Those are reserved for use in mapping non-English characters or general user key remapping.

Paired keys have been moved to normal-shift pairs instead of side-side.

() is now far easier to access than it is on any normal keyboard.

Swapped positions of Shift and Ctrl to make chording Pyra+shift easier.

My sense of symmetry is now satisfied with this space button layout.  It is easily accessible by either thumb.

Looking at it now I see I have some mild re-arranging to do to migrate some of the key clusters - that will have to wait for now.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Getting artsy on the central double wide trailer space bar.

Image on space bar blatantly stolen from _wb_'s layouts will be removed if he requests.

Note this adds a 4th mapping to the space bar.  Pyra-shift is now the secret Pyra key to be used as a semi-official Easter Egg trigger in Pyra specific applications.

Getting very incremental now.  Added Keyboard back light control to the Pyra shifted Esc key.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6e6c2d1f5cf51e4cf8a7fd6a44e1de39

More incremental changes - remapped a few keys around so that they make more 'sense'.  Added back tick (reverse single `quote´)  and paired these up on the left where people expect the ` to reside.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d7452726675b6610ea9b41c761924f1e

Clarification around nub clicks and shoulder buttons:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1489b53ecc2e3574df7167940a28e5e6
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Grench, some things I hate with a lot of the keyboard layouts are additional stuff on alpha keys, wasting the precious few keys by having a double wide any key and multiples of the same (or similar) modifiers, and putting things in places that aren't standard.  Your layout takes those, and, with your crazy ass ideas, makes it work.  While I don't know how well it would work in practice it looks and sounds pretty good.  I like it a lot, even though it is ugly looking.  Hell, I even like the way purple and teal look on it.  Everything I care about makes sense to me, except maybe tab.  I doubt I will get a chance to look at it and think long and hard about any potential problems, so maybe someone else can try to find all the flaws.  This is not to bash it, but to make sure there is nothing that is being overlooked.

How do tab and Pyra work?

Will having mouse buttons on shoulders cause any problems with games/emulators?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't think that moving the space bar to the middle is a good idea.  Everything else I've noticed looks pretty nice to me, but I think that most users being able to comfortably press the space bar again and again all the time is more important than people who would rather press it with their left thumb being able to do that.  Kiga mentioned earlier that a large reason for having a large space bar is being able to reliably press it with the heel of the thumb, that's important to me as well, that's the same thumb joint that I use to press the space bar on my desktop keyboard, pressing with the side of the heel of my thumb is kind of a space bar thing, but reaching that joint into the middle to press this space bar is pretty strenuous.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Grench, some things I hate with a lot of the keyboard layouts are additional stuff on alpha keys, wasting the precious few keys by having a double wide any key and multiples of the same (or similar) modifiers, and putting things in places that aren't standard.  Your layout takes those, and, with your crazy ass ideas, makes it work.  While I don't know how well it would work in practice it looks and sounds pretty good.  I like it a lot, even though it is ugly looking.  Hell, I even like the way purple and teal look on it.  Everything I care about makes sense to me, except maybe tab.  I doubt I will get a chance to look at it and think long and hard about any potential problems, so maybe someone else can try to find all the flaws.  This is not to bash it, but to make sure there is nothing that is being overlooked.


How do tab and Pyra work?


Will having mouse buttons on shoulders cause any problems with games/emulators?
Having the double-wide space bar makes it easier to access - and makes sense to me because now it is truly designed to be used by either/or thumb.


Tab is simply shift-space. You can use either thumb for each action - whatever is convenient.

I have to catch myself to call the orange function/shift Fn now instead of 'Pyra key'.  There are 4 quasi 5 keyboard modifier keys now.

Shift, Fn, Ctrl, Alt, AltGr

Alt and AltGr are of course left and right Alt.

Underscore is Fn-space. Again, since this is where it is, either Fn key (orange shift) will work.


The 'Pyra' logo key is accessed via Fn-shift-space. I figured if I was going to sneak a logo onto the space "any" key, and it didn't have a pre-disclosed mapping for Fn-shift, may as well make a funny use out of it.

Having the mouse 1-4 on the shoulder buttons instead of the Ctrl and Shift is going to break the shoulder function-map on every Pandora game that uses the shoulder buttons.  Don't panic.  It should be pretty easy to map mouse 3 and mouse 4 to anything - even shift and ctrl.  Worst case scenario you could use any of the two shift and ctrl buttons on the keyboard until the software footprint catches up.

Shift and ctrl on shoulder buttons was, kind of a cool exit for the fact that the Pandora had too few buttons.  We don't have that issue on the Pyra and can have a much more effective - and much more gamer centric layout.  The Pandora had two shift and two ctrl buttons too.  It's really only alt and ctrl and mouse buttons that I'm adding.

Regular mouse usage using the shoulder buttons should be more intuitive for non-Pandora users.  When I first got my Pandora, I had -expected- the shoulder buttons to work this way.  The whole 'Use the right analog as a keypad for mouse clicks' always struck me as a bit of a solution in a lurch situation that more or less worked - but was far from ideal.  Opinions on that will differ.

Please feel free to consider your favorite game or application, what keys are mapped how in it, and whether it will be playable/usable on this layout.  I've done a fair amount of 'polishing' at this point, so now it really comes down to 'testing' which of course can't really be done short of in our minds.
 
I don't think that moving the space bar to the middle is a good idea.  Everything else I've noticed looks pretty nice to me, but I think that most users being able to comfortably press the space bar again and again all the time is more important than people who would rather press it with their left thumb being able to do that.  Kiga mentioned earlier that a large reason for having a large space bar is being able to reliably press it with the heel of the thumb, that's important to me as well, that's the same thumb joint that I use to press the space bar on my desktop keyboard, pressing with the side of the heel of my thumb is kind of a space bar thing, but reaching that joint into the middle to press this space bar is pretty strenuous.
You won't be using the joint.  That was only needed as a way to explain how to hit it without making a crazy Vulcan grip with your right hand when the double wide space was on the right.

You'll be using the end of your thumb.  The whole console is less than 6" wide - so unless your combined thumb length + half your hand width is less than 3" you'll be fine.

Grab a Pandora.  Do you have any issues in hitting the V key with your left thumb?  Do you have any issues in hitting the B key with your right thumb?  Personally I find the entire row of bottom keys to be easy-reach.  The only ones that are difficult for me to reach with my thumbs are further back in the start and center of numerics area (on Pandora).  Otherwise one thumb or the other can get to them all.  Where I run into issues with the Pandora is I push the Fn key with my right thumb then have to loose my left grip and stretch over the keyboard to reach some of the lesser used Fn-symbols.

Now, the Fn-shift-alt-ctrl cluster, THOSE you'll be chording with side of your thumb and it's joint.

I wish there were a cheap way to mock up a usable keyboard.  Is there anyone out there good with paper-craft that wants to mock us up a few Pandora shells?
 
Yeah, the right nub as mouse buttons was a good solution, but is still odd to me.  Since I was late to the game, I am lucky.  I didn't use it enough to get used to it.

Most of the games I immediately think of benefit from the the Fn lock (I think?) option to get the numbers within easy reach of my thumb.  For me it is mostly FPSs and console emus, then the fine collection of Pandora games and ports.

I am still really surprised how much I like this layout.  I would be interested in whether more people like or dislike losing the number row in favor of the additional features this layout offers.  I see a few keys that have 4 markings, which I think is a no-go according to ED.  You have probably already addressed this, but T,Y,B,N and the keys with 4 characters look like they may be a bit confusing to use at first.  On the real keyboard would those (and punctuation and such) be marked in different colors to avoid confusion?  Has ED even told us if it is possible to have multiple colors on keys, and if so has he said what those colors are?
 
Yeah, the right nub as mouse buttons was a good solution, but is still odd to me.  Since I was late to the game, I am lucky.  I didn't use it enough to get used to it.

Most of the games I immediately think of benefit from the the Fn lock (I think?) option to get the numbers within easy reach of my thumb.  For me it is mostly FPSs and console emus, then the fine collection of Pandora games and ports.

I am still really surprised how much I like this layout.  I would be interested in whether more people like or dislike losing the number row in favor of the additional features this layout offers.  I see a few keys that have 4 markings, which I think is a no-go according to ED.  You have probably already addressed this, but T,Y,B,N and the keys with 4 characters look like they may be a bit confusing to use at first.  On the real keyboard would those (and punctuation and such) be marked in different colors to avoid confusion?  Has ED even told us if it is possible to have multiple colors on keys, and if so has he said what those colors are?
ED hasn't weighed in yet on any of the layouts to my knowledge.  I'd like to see what he thinks.

The 'no more than 2 per key' thing I'm treating as an arbitrary suggestion rather than a hard rule.  I'm restricting to two colors per key - which works fine.

The keys with 4 symbols are just like they're printed and need no more colors to clarify.  

The lower white symbol on the left is unshifted.  

The upper white symbol just in from the left is shift+key

The lower orange symbol just in from the right is Fn.

The upper orange symbol on the right is Fn+shift+key or shift+Fn+key (either is the same).  Shift and Fn can be chorded (mashed together) from either corner of the keyboard.

You'll notice that the Fn keys and the numeric keys are unmolested by the additional Fn+shift options.  This is because Fn+shift+key is a common mapping on F1-F12 and 1-0 in some games.

I'm glad you noticed the advantages to FPS games - it should flow through to MORPG type games as well since it will be possible to quickly alt-lock or ctrl-lock or shift-lock the F1-F12 keys and 1-0 keys as game conditions require to have a new set of mappings instantly.  Just press both of the relevant modifier keys and that function/shift altering combination is locked until you do it again to turn them off OR hold one modifier to temporarily un-lock.  Much like a caps-locked keyboard will do lowercase when shift is held, this should un-function or un-alt or un-ctrl or un-shiftlock temporarily when the relevant modifer key is held.

Neverwinter Nights uses the Fn keys in 3 banks.  Unshifted, alt-Fn, ctrl-Fn.  I normally map primary 'combat functions' to the unshifted, buff functions to alt-Fn and alternate combat functions to ctrl-Fn.  This layout will work -better- than a normal keyboard for that game.

I play a lot of Half-Life derivatives.  Having an unmolested number pad in easy reach of the right thumb for weapon selection - perfect.

When I first came up with the idea of nesting keys by function I was skeptical if it could be made to work - and did it on a bit of a whim to see if I could make it happen.  It turned out way better than I had thought it would.

Of course I'm biased.

Please, everyone who can spare the time, give it a mental pre-test considering your favorite games or applications.
 
I would like to hear what ED thinks, too, since he makes the final decision.  That would help focus attention on refining whatever he prefers.

Like you said, the numbers right there for your thumb will be a huge improvement over the Pandora number key for FPSs.  That is probably a big part of why I like this.  I haven't played any MMORPGs in a few years since giving up on windows gaming.  The last one I tried to play on Linux, STO, was nearly unplayable (extremely low frame rate) with however I set it up.  If Pyra can help me play some good science fiction ones I might get back into them.  Maybe I will try some of the older fantasy themed stuff, if possible.  Which do you have in mind?

I have a copy of NWN, and a couple other games, that I must admit I have never played, or even installed.  Somehow I still have those, but I have lost the discs for the games I played all the time.

Is there a specific reason the '" key is next to M and ., is next to Enter?  I don't know where those are on other keyboards, but on mine they would be in the opposite areas.  Do you use ~ more than @?  I like the dedicated | even in that weird spot.  I don't know how difficult it would be for non-English users to get other letters, so I would appreciate input from people on that in relation to this layout.  Edit: A post in another thread reminded me that those who are going to be changing the layout to something other than QWERTY will relocate markings for some characters.  That is a bit of a downside for them.

Regarding the mock up, maybe someone can guesstimate the dimensions of the Pyra keys and make an outline that we can print (on paper) to test the different layouts.  Cheesy, but it is the best most of us have.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I appreciate your efforts, Grench, but there are quite a few problems I see with your proposal:

  • No dedicated dash/hyphen key (-)  -- Fn+Shift+N just to get a single dash? This is a very important punctuation symbol, and it is also used to pass arguments on the shell and in coding, not just for minus but also in operators like e.g. -> and :-
  • ) as Shift+( is a bad idea (also, to a lesser extent < as Shift+>). Brackets tend to come in pairs, so intuitively I expect them at the same level (primary, shifted, Fn, I don't care, but both on the same level). Same problem with { } [ ]. I want to be able to quickly type {} or () or [] and then move the cursor one back if I need to put something between the brackets (which is not always needed in coding!). That's the simplest way to make sure that your brackets are always balanced.
  • Comma and period on the same key is not a good idea. They both deserve a dedicated primary key, since they're by far the most important punctuation symbols in any natural language.
  • Tab as Shift+Space is a very bad idea: it has to be possible to do Shift+Tab (and, to a lesser extent, Shift+Space)
  • Ctrl Lock and Alt Lock are probably not needed and just annoying to accidentally get stuck in
  • I see no convenient mechanism to enter international symbols, like the German Ü Ö Ä or the Norwegian Å Ø Æ. Are you supposed to use AltGr for these? But then you lose the right Alt, so combinations like Alt+F4 become hard to do. There is no room at P+1 and L+2, Fn+vowels is already taken, I see no easy way to do implement dead diacritics, and using Compose it's going to be a lot of keypresses: you don't have any spare key that can be mapped to a dedicated Compose (no modifiers on the shoulders implies that you need all of them on both sides), so Compose would have to be something like Ctrl+Ctrl or some other combination of keys. E.g. to enter ç you would then have to press Ctrl+Ctrl, Shift+period, C (five thumb presses). On the default Pandora layout, it is Shift+Enter, Comma, C (three thumb presses since Shift is on a shoulder button). On my proposed layout, it is Shift+Shift, Comma, C (three thumb presses) using Compose, or just Pyra+Comma, C (two thumb presses) using the dead diacritic method.
 
I appreciate your efforts, Grench, but there are quite a few problems I see with your proposal:

  • No dedicated dash/hyphen key (-)  -- Fn+Shift+N just to get a single dash? This is a very important punctuation symbol, and it is also used to pass arguments on the shell and in coding, not just for minus but also in operators like e.g. -> and :-
  • ) as Shift+( is a bad idea (also, to a lesser extent < as Shift+>). Brackets tend to come in pairs, so intuitively I expect them at the same level (primary, shifted, Fn, I don't care, but both on the same level). Same problem with { } [ ]. I want to be able to quickly type {} or () or [] and then move the cursor one back if I need to put something between the brackets (which is not always needed in coding!). That's the simplest way to make sure that your brackets are always balanced.
  • Comma and period on the same key is not a good idea. They both deserve a dedicated primary key, since they're by far the most important punctuation symbols in any natural language.
  • Tab as Shift+Space is a very bad idea: it has to be possible to do Shift+Tab (and, to a lesser extent, Shift+Space)
  • Ctrl Lock and Alt Lock are probably not needed and just annoying to accidentally get stuck in
  • I see no convenient mechanism to enter international symbols, like the German Ü Ö Ä or the Norwegian Å Ø Æ. Are you supposed to use AltGr for these? But then you lose the right Alt, so combinations like Alt+F4 become hard to do. There is no room at P+1 and L+2, Fn+vowels is already taken, I see no easy way to do implement dead diacritics, and using Compose it's going to be a lot of keypresses: you don't have any spare key that can be mapped to a dedicated Compose (no modifiers on the shoulders implies that you need all of them on both sides), so Compose would have to be something like Ctrl+Ctrl or some other combination of keys. E.g. to enter ç you would then have to press Ctrl+Ctrl, Shift+period, C (five thumb presses). On the default Pandora layout, it is Shift+Enter, Comma, C (three thumb presses since Shift is on a shoulder button). On my proposed layout, it is Shift+Shift, Comma, C (three thumb presses) using Compose, or just Pyra+Comma, C (two thumb presses) using the dead diacritic method.
Your attitude is pretty poor in your last few messages to this thread.  Being condescending isn't winning you any points.  At least this one actually addresses my layout instead of promoting your own.  From your arguments, you clearly do not understand how this keyboard works.  I'll try to walk you through it.

It's a portable keyboard with limited space.  Not every key is going to get a dedicated top-level spot.  It simply can't.  Add in that this is designed to be used by two thumbs - not a whole set of fingers.  Accepting those facts I came up with a different system that is -faster- than a shrunk down normal keyboard would be for accessing nearly all of the symbols.

- as Fn+Shift+N.  That is correct, however you're making it out to be a whole lot harder than it actually is.  The Fn+Shift is -chorded- together using the left thumb then the right thumb pushes N.  It is no more difficult to get to then + is on a normal keyboard (shift=).

You're complaining about () both not being top level and accessible.  They are easier to access on this keyboard than they are on a standard desktop.

The paired brackets on a single key using direct=( and shift+key=) is a -great- idea and allows MUCH more of the keyboard to be accessed and addressed quickly than would otherwise be available.  Consider the actual action of typing ().  On a standard keyboard it is shift90 = ().  On my keyboard it is ( shift).  Same key strokes -without moving the selector thumb-.  Your left thumb is moving for the shift as the right thumb hits the ( key.  I.e. its -faster- than it would be on a standard keyboard.  ALL of the bracket and paired keys are faster.  You can still do your () backspace one and code in the center - easy as can be.  Key ( Key shift+(.  The right thumb doesn't move, the left one was on it's way when you hit (.  Should be very fast.

Comma and period DO belong on the same key in this layout.  They are common use keys and are set to be easily accessed either straight up or with a opposite thumb shift.  They're easy to find and super easy to select.  Your comments keep ignoring the fact that either thumb can shift, Fn, etc... and that the modifiers can be easily chorded.

Tab as shift+space being an issue preventing shift+tab and shift+space.  I have -never- seen an application that requires -anything- + tab or -anything- + space.  Do you have a practical real world example of where this will be an issue?  I had considered keeping the space bar split and making the left side tab and the right side space when I realized they could be merged for gorgeous symmetry on the keyboard.  I can split them - but I want a hard fact real world example of why it's needed.

Ctrl Lock and Alt Lock are needed for anyone who plans to play complex PC style games on the Pyra.  In fact, it's one of this keyboards great features.  You would know that if you'd have bothered to read the other sections above.  Fn-lock brings in the Fn and numeric keys.  That's top level selection covering actions (MRPG), weapon selection (FPS) and communications.  Being able to drop your thumbs down to the corners to activate Alt-Lock instantly remaps that entire section for another bank of actions.  Ctrl-lock and shift-lock and all of the potential combinations is yet another set of mappings for these keys that can be input into the game configs.  It's insane flexibility beyond what you get in a desktop keyboard.

As stated above, I would like to incorporate one of the color LED status lights into the keyboard design in order to display what the status is.  That would make it blatantly obvious what condition it's in.  As for accidentally activating Ctrl-lock or alt-lock, I find that to be a hollow argument.  You'd need to accidentally without knowing push left ctrl and right ctrl at the same time to lock ctrl for instance - highly unlikely.

International symbols - I left 2 Fn and 2 Fn+shift keys which are readily available on the G & H keys for direct mapping.  The right Alt can alternatively work as an AltGr, though I'm not 100% sold on it needing to.  Frankly I'd rather it just be an 'Alt' key.  There are 4 relatively easy to get to programmable keys.  For European languages it's likely enough.

As for the ç character that you're so worried about...  I don't want to seem overly callous, but why do we care so much?  The odds of people who use it buying a Pandora is pretty remote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87

On my keyboard, lock the Fn to bring up the keypad.  Hold down or lock the Alt keys.  Type 135 in and you'll get ç.  If you use it a lot, software map it into Fn-G or Fn-shift-G or Fn-H or Fn-shift-H.  The entire ASCII set can be accessed this way.

That said, I've also considered mapping shift+Fn+Enter as compose.  So, Shift+Fn+Enter,c would yield ç.  It would break down in strokes/actions as:

Shift+Fn with left thumb + Enter with right thumb (ONE stroke with TWO thumbs)

Shift with left thumb + , with right thumb (ONE stroke with TWO thumbs)

c with left thumb

So, a total of 3 strokes/actions of which 2 are chorded using the collected modifier pad on the left thumb.

Can you think of any reason NOT to use Fn+shift+Enter as Compose?

Would this modification meet the international keyboard need?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/243cbf23735f22f9022ecea6dc520efb
 
Alt-number is not a linux thing, to my knowledge that only works on windows.

And you talk about ASCII as if it was some sort of standard. Anything above 127 is not a standard per se. It's 17 different standards. Even more if you count the non-ISO8859 ones.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top