Comparison matrix for keyboard layout proposals


Wb: I wish i understood why it is important if or if not it "fully corresponds with german keyboards" or what you had in mind. It is offered on a best-effort basis. And ill let people paying for a

keymat decide in that matter.
Well, the main argument in favor of your layout is the claim that 'most languages' can map their standard layout to your layout proposal and have all the keys they need in the correct position, so even though the keys are not labeled like on their keyboard, by muscle memory they can blind type correctly.

I can see how that works for the Scandinavian languages.

For basically any other language, it does not work though. You can do a 'best-effort', but in a sense a regular A-Z only keyboard is already a 'best-effort'. Best-effort is not good enough. Either it works for a language, or it doesn't. The point of a keymat labeling is to indicate which key does what; if all you can do is guess (maybe ß is at AltGr+S? maybe it is at AltGr+B? maybe it is at AltGr+Shift+0?), then the labeling is not really helping. It may look clean, but then again, a completely blank keymat also looks pretty clean. 'Clean' and 'helpful' are somewhat contradictory objectives.

My point is: P+2, L+2 alone is not good enough as a generic mechanism to cover different locales. It may be good enough for Scandinavian blind-typers, it may be good enough for Germans who don't mind writing ss instead of ß, it may be good enough for people who don't look at the labels anyway and who are good at remembering custom mappings, but I would say it is not good enough for most people.
 
Completely blank legends work, lets not forget that.  Having the known stuff not visible works by default for people who know how to use a keyboard. And if we are getting any customers, its going to be the ones who know how to appreciate a real keyboard, since those are rarer than hens teeth on mobile devices nowadays.

I think english people will find not having foreign stuff in their layout is beneficial.

AltGr keys, with alternate graphics that arent printed works too. If its reasonably close to an expected or sane default, then it works. Its much better to hide the hacks that more marginal languages will have.

Because its not putting eggs in the basket, and its more flexible.

Hiding stuff behind AltGr that isnt where its expected fails, but how hard does it fail? Depends. Hiding something that isnt used very much, where it cant be said to be expected, is ok if you get something in return.

From a german point of view, id much rather take the ability to type efficient german, and having to learn how to type the much less used ß, than to have äöü and ß be just as inefficient.

What international users are you speaking on behalf of when you estimate that printed regional letters on many of the letters is better? If its in general, then i think you will find people prefer their most deeply ingrained habits, which is letters in typewriter arrangement.

The tradeoff becomes

A  Ineffective, no muscle memory, visual but less visual overall.

B  Effective, muscle memory, having to guess or read up on some hacks.

Now the way to solve the visuals is with additional keymats. Each region gets to vote for/figure out what is the most popular way, and then that is produced if there are enough takers.

I dont understand the rationality behind harping on how it doesnt work fully for all people. It works a lot better for some people. Thats extra sales. That is good, no?

Over half the community wants it, and it is compatible with the other half.

Unless there is a direct detrimental effect on english users, i dont see why we international users cant ask for this much. All the english people i have shown my typewriter-part to say they can manage. The voting suggested so too, thats a lot of what i wanted answered in my poll.

Edit: If we can agree on the layout, we can design the AltGr level, (and FN level if needed) around the layout. Then we can acknowledge everyones wishes as best possible.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Does someone have time to put this into the keyboard matrix?  I can't open it effectively - traveling, small screens only.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/506b2c784b770c2b396be9ce4b6044d9

This is a few slight tweaks and clean up on a design that is 99% _wb_'s.

I think we may be finding a "common ground" with this one.  Is there anything still off/weird/unusable on this?

Edit: Updated version with some minor clean-up done.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/94ca174096ca3adbe2b65ab27ac253b0
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Why does it matter if the fields dont? The difference just means there is competition over how to inflate the score with things that all layouts have, not actual difference or real perception.

Bullshit in, bullshit out.
 
Why does it matter if the fields dont? The difference just means there is competition over how to inflate the score with things that all layouts have, not actual difference or real perception.

Bullshit in, bullshit out.
I know you basically only care about P+2, L+2 being available for mapping åæø as dedicated primary keys, and having as few labels as possible. You obviously don't need a comparison table for that.

Most of us have less clear-cut priorities.

It is not very polite to say that your opinion is the only thing that matters while our opinion is "bullshit".
 
I think people should assign whatever weights they want, and we shouldn't bug them too much about it.
If someone has assigned some extreme values then there's a chance that there's a really good reason for that, possibly something they've thought of that no one else has, or something that they missed and therefore needs to be made more obvious.Sometimes it's just an internalized vendetta though and should be ignored, you can't really tell which it is unless you ask.
 
it sounds like comradekingu designed his keyboard according to a poll, but nobody seems to like it (or no one is stepping forward to like it). that's got to disillusion somewhat.

vendetta or not, i suppose it's good to see why people vote the way they do, but i'd rather not make it seem like we're strong-arming them into voting our weights...
 
I think people should assign whatever weights they want, and we shouldn't bug them too much about it.
If someone has assigned some extreme values then there's a chance that there's a really good reason for that, possibly something they've thought of that no one else has, or something that they missed and therefore needs to be made more obvious.
Sometimes it's just an internalized vendetta though and should be ignored, you can't really tell which it is unless you ask.
It's not relevant for what one uses his vote. Its a matter of accepting it even if its just made for some kind of vendetta.

As long we can trust (or hope) nobody votes multiple times its okay.
 
It's not relevant for what one uses his vote.
Well no, that's the point: it is very relevant. If someone has given a strong negative response to something there should be a reason for that, a reason that could help improve the design, especially if it was high marks in other aspects and only one point needs some improvement. What a sad world it must be to hate something and have no one ask why or how to improve it.
 
Let me use other words:

There is no wrong way how one votes.

Its a matter of accepting someone has another opinion even if you can't understand it. The opposite would be a sad world.

Of course a detailed description would help, but we cant ignore a vote just because we dont understand it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
There is no wrong way how one votes.
No one said there was, but if someone feels strongly against something there's nothing wrong with asking for an explanation about it either. Explanations should be encouraged, cultivated, leading to improvements.
Case in point, you felt strongly enough to respond to me telling me there's "no wrong way to vote" which is not something I felt I had said, yet that is something you read out of it. What phrasing did you pick up on that lead you to that conclusion so that I can reword it to not give that impression?
 
this one:

Sometimes it's just an internalized vendetta though and should be ignored, you can't really tell which it is unless you ask.
If we want to ignore a vote, I imply we ignore the vote because we think its "wrong".
 
Ah, I meant ignore the explanation, not the vote. The vote is still valid but there's nothing to be learned from asking why, but you don't know that until after you've asked.
 
I didn't find ck's layout appealing because I didn't like his color choice. Thanks to _wb_ I now know that I want as few labels as possible and no dead diacritics (and I'd prefer his minimal version to ck's). Perhaps all layouts should use standardized colors (or am I the only one being that sensitive)?
 
No, you arent. :)
Ive done away with colours because they don't present a clear benefit. At best they are a half/half by visualizing hacks.
Be it F-keys. Or modifiers that dont exist outside of their own reality.
Colours instead of placement are a detriment to overall clarity, because what they really do is explain something again.
In a way that isn't found on non-toy keyboards. You lose a lot of customers there, because professional is a concern.
Toy keyboard colouring is at best something that can be tolerated. Also it costs more to produce.
 

Why does it matter if the fields dont? The difference just means there is competition over how to inflate the score with things that all layouts have, not actual difference or real perception.
 
Bullshit in, bullshit out.
 
I know you basically only care about P+2, L+2 being available for mapping åæø as dedicated primary keys, and having as few labels as possible. You obviously don't need a comparison table for that.
 
Most of us have less clear-cut priorities.
 
It is not very polite to say that your opinion is the only thing that matters while our opinion is "bullshit".
Most of "us" make things that are incompatible "us" in a greater sense than a handful of people.
 
I care about efficiency, potential, and not screwing people over, things which are irrelevant to the scheme of things in the matrix.
Look at the argument you presented, you take complex issues, muddle them together, and come out with simplistic assumptions.
 
To just throw your argument overboard: Did you notice that shift is actually in the way of æ, why do you think that is? Efficiency for english, so thats atleast one competing concern. Having as few labels as possible you could just do that, and not care about anyone. Ironically this is the type of assumption your matrix employs.
That less is better, and that no concerns are in between. Not that any amount of symbols is a concerns with the rating employed, but:
 
It doesnt matter where symbols are, because its irrelevant where things belong, the difference between different concepts and areas likewise. I guess that makes it a question of esoterica that you can just ignore.
 
My opinion, or personal opinion doesn't matter, its by default impossible to out-do the layouts already presented. Even adding buttons wouldnt help. The only way to come out with higher numbers is for the originator to game the system by changing the weights after having uploaded yet another similar design. Not at all questioning the validity in, or out, in doing so.
You _cant_ do better, and if you do better in reality, you are punished for it in the matrix world.
 
Which is where I am really baffled, its blatantly obvious, impervious to critique, and locked into belief.
 
Presenting an argument, from an overview-point of view, is a question of not forgetting anything, not about making the most defensive apologist portrayal.
 
For some reason the very basic nature of how a keyboard/typewriter works, and is known to work, is discredited by many of those who make layouts.
Some of which don't even speak anything but English... I wouldnt bring this up if there was any argument to latch onto.
It really irks me that people who don't use dedicated letters can throw away the wish of _over half the concerned voters_ _when its compatible with the other half_.
 
Without even explaining what there is to gain, and forever trying to make it seem as if its something to do with me or Norwegian.
 
Employing the most elitist designs I have seen on any keyboard. Not at all seeming bothered to even try it on someone who isn't as technical, or a novice user.
 
I may not be the most advanced user around, but i dislike the pandora layout with a passion. I didnt think it could get any worse, and to its credit its limited by keys, but some things manage to make it seem preferable.
 
Opinion into thin air is worthless, discussion is worthwhile. Avoiding that and pointing to biased opinions in a matrix that cant be critiqued, nor corrected, is bullshit. It baffles me even more that value can be perceived in it. Even if all the things ive raised issues with in this thread was incorporated, it wouldnt even begin to describe the lack of overview. It wouldnt be a logical order, and it would be far from complete. Asking people to vote then, is just begging for a reason to produce flawed arguments.
 
If things change in incompatible ways every week, and you hear yourself saying "you can just", when you know that people "just cant", maybe its time to go back to the drawing-board and employ a little bit of rationality.
 
If it doesn't make sense overall, its not balanced. And its not about questioning what that process really is, lift the sights high enough to tell other people what you dislike about their designs, and you are bound to get some new impulses.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You _cant_ do better, and if you do better in reality, you are punished for it in the matrix world.
Not saying I actually did better but atleast I felt like my keyboard was better than most submission otherwise I wouldn't have felt the need to make it ;)

But yes, I stopped looking at the matrix or bothering with it's scores because imo the focus is way too much on international support and the keyboards submitted are taylored to score high in it. Also I had the idea that where the scores weren't as high as expected, more options were added to the matrix to up the scores.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Employing the most elitist designs I have seen on any keyboard. Not at all seeming bothered to even try it on someone who isn't as technical, or a novice user.
I have, just on my wife though, who is a writer but somewhat digital iliterate :)

She likes the keyboards that look the most like a regular keyboard without too much labels the best. The "busy" looking keyboards dazzled her too much and a quick glance without even looking properly was enough for her to wave them away.

Truth be told that she's 100% not a potential Pyra customer though.
 
_Exactly_ the same i've found when showing different layouts to varied usergroups.

The way I see that is we are onto something if we don't dazzle the non-nerds.

Excluding normal people definitely rules out most potential customers, because that base is so much greater than anything else.

It also has a lot of "known to work" weight to it, which is important when doing anything besides the norm. Otherworldly concepts in keyboarding fail very fast if what you want is a greater market-base.

Edit: The pyra isnt a nerdy version of something that already exists, there are a plethora of entries into it for regular people.

I want a small laptop

I want something secure/a philosophy I can support

I want something with good design

I like console-games

I want something that lasts

I want something that is made in Europe/not by children

None of these reach potential if the keyboard isn't simple.

Edit: Btw, farmers may not dine at fancy restaurants, but they know a thing or two about what goes into making the resources that each meal is made of.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Most "normal non-nerd people" are already dazzled by the form factor. "Such a small screen! Can you actually read that?" is the first reaction I usually get while people are getting their laptops out of their bags. Even many "nerds" react that way.

Adding ÜÖÄß and stuff like that to the keymat might "dazzle" some people, but for some others (e.g. Germans) it would be quite comforting to find labels for those letters.

But yes, I stopped looking at the matrix or bothering with it's scores because imo the focus is way too much on international support and the keyboards submitted are taylored to score high in it. Also I had the idea that where the scores weren't as high as expected, more options were added to the matrix to up the scores.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.
You're wrong, I think :)

Yes, "the matrix" has a lot of rows that are related to international support, but you're free to assign low, zero or negative weights those properties. There is no need to assign big weights. For example, in the way that ible assigned weights, all of the international support properties together only contribute 4% to his scoring. By contrast, you and _jr_ assign relatively large weights to those properties (38% for Eight Bit, 48% for _jr_), and those weights are predominantly negative, meaning that "the matrix" actually discourages layouts with more international support.
 
Even if we assume your argument to be true, if you deduct "most" from the "normal non-nerd people" they outnumber the "not normal nerdy people" by orders of magnitude. Selling devices in the order of thousands becomes a lot easier if there arent hurdles to overcome.  Readability is an issue fixed with higher pixel density and bigger screen, that is already much better.

When you put Select and Ctrl on the same 3x7mm button, you have transferred that problem to the keyboard. There is no neccecity in that advanced users have good eye-sight.

I dont know where im placed, I have excellent vision, but you already lost me with the complexity. Please consult a bigger usergroup, and you will get the same response as I and Eight-bit have gotten. From my point of view, needless complexity is universially bad. It is no excuse that advanced people are able to use it, and it is no point in arguing that normal people wont buy the device.

How do you know that there arent any normal people who bought the pandora? Im fairly confident by making it more complex you are scaring away some of the current userbase. I am sure that this prospect is a good thing to avoid.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top