[Ex-Rebirth Comp] The Collector Plus


Have you tried my original version? or watched the videos? You can't really defend yourself in The Collector anyway, but then you can't die. You are just knocked down for a few seconds. Could still be a bit of a choke point, but we'll have to see.


What I don't think I mentioned before (it's certainly not in this thread), is that there will be teleporters around the map too, so you are not totally restricted to the ladders/staircase anyway
Nope sorry, have not tried the initial version and the video did not give away much tbh. But as I said, I kind of expected this, which is why I wrote my concerns might not apply to your game anyway (well most of them anyway), still I wanted to highlight another "solution" to the vertical movement problem, which I personally found to work best ;)


(although you obviously can also use the defenceless situation of the player on a ladder as a gameplay element, yet most games fail to do so in a good way - Braid comes to mind as a good one, Castlevania 2 as a pretty bad one).


Alternate ways to get around certainly is a good idea in my eyes :)
 
although you obviously can also use the defenceless situation of the player on a ladder as a gameplay element, yet most games fail to do so in a good way
Actually, you're pretty safe on ladders. You can only push people when standing on the ground, so you can't jump up to somebody on the ladder and push them off... Though I have been thinking maybe that needs adding in.


I'm not even sure if anybody other than myself and a couple of friends have even played Collector, and have no idea if it's actually perceived as a fun game? I guess we'll get a better idea when I've got a demo of the new one running
 
Edit: Urm, the timescale pasted nicely, but when submitted descended into chaos, so I've removed it
 
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Hey, I actually played the original collector a while ago, it just never got around to deliver some feedback, so even with the competition really close now :( here I am taking a few minutes off, hope it helps anyway.


First of all, I like the non-violent gameplay and basic idea behind the game - team based games can be pretty rad.


But, I did not have much fun with it actually for the following reasons:


The gameplay is too random. Due to the random nature of the level and placement of the stamps it's really not possible to come up with a strategy so the game ends with everyone running around frenetically trying to get to the nearest stamp or just running around aimlessly, because the nearest one has just been snatched away under your nose. It's kind of like watching 8 year olds play football (the European definition) - everyone is just running after the ball.


This might be intentional, but I don't feel like it works (for any kind of game actually), because all it boils down to is who sees a stamp appear somewhere and who is the closest to it at that point. If you have a full team of human players you can obviously divide the map into sections with every player handling one of those (to get some control over the others), but I doubt that would work out for very long.


So what I would suggest is toning down the randomness of the game (not just in terms of the map, I will get to that later).


If you were to keep the basic structure and idea you have now, you could make the stamps appear in pre-determined locations and either add something which teleports all players too close to this location away on appearance of the stamp - to discourage camping, but this could also lead to some frustration OR just always use the location(s) with the lowest player density OR something else, I actually don't really think this would work out very well in any case.


Another suggestion would be to change the gametype to be more capture-the-flag based (like in TF2 or something similar, just without the killing).


And yet another suggestion (though this one requires many structural changes) would be to change to something attack-defend themed where one team gets some time to set up a defence for the stamps (like moving around ladders, adding barricades, teleporters, etc.) and maybe even move around the locations of the stamps and after the time runs up has to keep the other team (which spawns on one end of the map) from getting to the stamps and then actually getting out with them again (being kicked will make you drop the stamp you are holding, you can only hold one at a time).


Well these are just some ideas, which I feel might be too drastic, but the gist is I suggest you change the gameplay somewhat to encourage more strategy and make the game less random and luck based.


The move-set of the player feels good, I actually like the ladders, they work really well in this game (as I mentioned before this is not a common thing for me to say), even the fall-damage feels fair, though the kick could use some work.


At the moment with the player not being able to move while kicking it is kind of useless as you can hardly use it "in action" (run up to a player or try to stop someone running away from you), except when someone tries to go up a ladder without jumping on it (which is a rather stupid thing to do). When standing still people can just jump over you and the hit detection feels really narrow, so it's hard to connect anyway.


So what I would suggest is making the player able to kick while running, but to discourage just running around kicking like a mad man, either add a cooldown to the kick or make it or slide-kick (so the player actually slides forward with high-speed while kicking everything in his path - similar to the "falcon kick" by Captain Falcon in Super Smash Brothers).


Also besides that, adding a sprinting ability immediately improves almost every game ;)


As much as random level creation adds replay-ability I am kind of glad you are ditching it for this version, because in my eyes it just created several problems.


It just adds to the lack of strategical-bility (I am making that a word!): Teleporters would set you in mid-air, so you would take inevitable fall damage (well this is a risk-reward thing, so it might just be fair again...), some places were inaccessible, some were dead ends, some ladders were basically useless and in rare occasions you (or some other dude) could be spawned in a tiny hole in the ground without an exit.


A minor nitpick: A small help screen explaining what to do and how stamps are counted would be nice (and will always be regarded more than a readme text file).


Lastly, the graphics and music were both solid. I liked the cute little characters and 8-bit charm with it's low-frame animations, yet every frame getting across exactly what it is supposed to.


So yeah, dunno if am talking totally besides the point, but I hope you can take something away from this


Thanks for reading and I am looking forward to what you come up with for the next version (for the replay competition or otherwise) :)
 
Thank you very much for that feedback. It was a great read!


You highlighted several of the issues I had with the original game:

  • "Pushing" was basically useless
  • Map had dead-ends and inaccessible areas. There is an emergency teleport (Up+Jump, I think, if you got stuck, it had a cooldown on though)
  • The "fun factor" was lacking, though I couldn't really "understand" my problem but looks like you nailed it


The random teleport was risk/reward, though I think I could (and should) have made it less risk by reducing the height you can fall from.


I was still going to keep the random generator in, but hopefully refine it more. However, I think you pretty much nailed it saying that the game was too "random", and you almost just had to get lucky to win. I had tried to add some form of direction to it, by providing stamps with team colours to get bonus points, but you're right, it was just too random.


I didn't do a help screen, because I thought there were few enough keys to learn, and the gameplay was pretty simple. Though maybe for things like the emergency teleport and scoring, it might have been handy. I'll look at putting something in the next one though.


Damn, I wish you'd been around when I was building the first one. :D I guess I'm going to have to take a few steps back, whilst I work out where I take it. It's definately going to miss the rebirth compo, but if it makes me a better game, it's the right choice.


What do you think of the new graphics versus the old ones?


Thank you again for your input, it was exactly what I needed, and thankfully before I've written too much code.
 
Hey, no problem, I am glad I can help (I really love to talk about stuff like this :) ).


It's one reason I am starting this: post (the last two paragraphs are relevant)


I actually did not know about the emergency teleport, and I doubt one figures that out by accident very quickly, so help screen is in order ;)


I am definitely not an expert on graphics and am of the opinion that those should always come after gameplay (yet way too many games focus on that first or foremost, which grants them a lot of publicity as you can show off graphics much better than good ideas for gameplay), so I usually don't comment about that much or at all. (I am not saying graphics are useless, just that they should enhance and underline the gameplay, not be the sole reason for the game's existence).


Anyway, I am not sure about it in this case. I feel like the old graphics had more character to them, they felt more "complete".


More pixels (higher resolution graphics) obviously give you more space to work with, but it will always look inferior if you don't actually use that extra space. So I would say use the smallest size of graphics you still can fit all the details in you want to include (this again might come with experience, too few details look bland, too many look overloaded, yet again both extremes can make for a very unique style if executed correctly, but this certainly is harder than finding a good middle ground).


I am mostly referring to the characters here, though. The tiles looks allright, but I feel like those are less important than the player graphics anyway.
 
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Thanks for that. I thought I had to try and increase their size due to the larger resolution than the original game had (which was 320x240). Keeping the originals would have been too small. I could have scaled them (like I do in the original), but I wanted to try and give them a bit more personality, whilst keeping a very basic look.


The graphics weren't a major part of this, I only asked because you brought up the old ones. ^_^


I guess I should retitle this thread now.


What can I now produce in 10 days?.... ;) or I might just throw myself out there as a Ronin, and see if anybody's looking for a dev to assist in their project.
 
More pixels (higher resolution graphics) obviously give you more space to work with, but it will always look inferior if you don't actually use that extra space. So I would say use the smallest size of graphics you still can fit all the details in you want to include (this again might come with experience, too few details look bland, too many look overloaded, yet again both extremes can make for a very unique style if executed correctly, but this certainly is harder than finding a good middle ground).


I am mostly referring to the characters here, though. The tiles looks allright, but I feel like those are less important than the player graphics anyway.

Definite +1. Also trying to make too high fidelity graphics for your game diverts too much resources from making the game work right. If some graphics are done in higher detail than others, they will look out of place. So by increasing the detail level of some of your graphics you're actually increasing your workload a lot. If you don't have a dedicated artist, I say do exactly as foxblock suggests and don't fret on graphics any more than you need. If it's later deemed necessary / wanted, replacing the graphics with more detailed ones is usually a small fix.
 
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I haven't played this so I am going to give some 'blind' ideas from what I have seen/read.


I think you could make it more fun if you had other random objects you had/could collect to be able to collect more stamps.


Such as:

  • keys (very original I know) - which unlock rooms which stamps might behind. Of course the decision here is also door always unlocked from then on.. or does it relock and the key is 'eaten'.
  • ice cubes, banana skins, 'home alone' style objects. Things you can place around to slow other players down.
  • kooper shell... knocks over opponents and collects things in it's way..
  • shoes... faster speed (again very original :p )


I do think the map needs to be larger... like some kind of tall office building... you could then have lifts (which might be quicker way up than the stairs.. unless some prankster presses the button to stop it in mid flow or it breaks down temporarily.)


Also have more kind of stamps... ones that are more valuable than others... etc


those are some random thoughts. :)
 
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Cheers for the comments. Yeah, as I said, I wasn't pushing the graphics, Foxblock just mentioned that he liked the old ones, so just wondered what he thought of the newer ones.

ice cubes, banana skins, 'home alone' style objects. Things you can place around to slow other players down.
I had considered glue pots that you could throw on the floor to slow down the player, and possibly movable furniture, though as the game engine stands (which isn't very high), I forgot to actually include those in the design.

I do think the map needs to be larger... like some kind of tall office building... you could then have lifts (which might be quicker way up than the stairs.. unless some prankster presses the button to stop it in mid flow or it breaks down temporarily.)
The editor supports much larger maps than seen here. The "Capture the Stamp" mode needed quite a decent space between players

Also have more kind of stamps... ones that are more valuable than others... etc
Was already in the original. Stamps scored one point, unless it was team colours, which was worth 2, or the "Penny Black" worth 5.


It definately needs something more to add strategy. I'll see what I can come up with, but it's pretty certain it won't make the compo.


Cheers for the feedback
 
I was thinking more of the tower/office block idea for maps and this is a kind of thing that came to mind:


ndsx7a.png



Now I also thought of a 'spanner/hammer/screwdriver' item which would allow a player to break things/mend them.... in this case the lift motors and fire escape stairs.


Breaking the fire escape stairs just renders it useless.. mending just makes it useful again.


With the lifts breaking it could have a few effects:


1)Just causes the lift to stop


2)Causes the lift to go to random floors


3)Causes the lift to be slow


4)Causes the lift to be fast


These could happen at random.. For the person causing the damage it could help them hinder or aid an opponent in the lift.


The tool item will only work once per use tho.


Lights can be turned on/off so a player can't see what items are in there unless they press a light switch.. (or again could use a tool to break/mend the lighting.) Some lighting might just turn off automatically. etc :)
 
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Good ideas.


Or you could hack a fusebox to turn off all lights on a floor :)
 
Good ideas.


Or you could hack a fusebox to turn off all lights on a floor :)

Random power cuts, for which you need a battery to connect to the fusebox to light the entire floor, or a torch which only lights the room are are in.
 
Some nice ideas there lemondragon, though it doesn't feel like it should be a stamp collection game in a tower/office block. That said, I only chose stamps in the first one because it was the first thing I associated with collecting ;)


Maybe have it so you can pick up parachutes and jump out windows.


Thanks! Most helpful


Edit: Almost makes me think more Spy Vs Spy... hmmmmmm.......

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Yu2e866bEcM?feature=oembed
 
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I dont think many of the greatest games ever made made much logical sense in terms of item pick ups.. :p


my idea reminds me of Simtower a little bit... XD
 
No, but I do intend to revisit it though, I've had some thoughts on how to make the gameplay more fun. I'm just working on a tower defence game at the minute though
 
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