It's the keyboard layout.


So yeah,

Here´s my proposal. I wanted to do this for a long time already but never got round to it.

It´s inspired on the one ED likes in the first post and edited from _wb_´s proposal. I wanted a better compatibility with the Pandora than his so I shuffled some keys around, edited some keys left and right and ended up with this.

I'm very happy with the end result, I think it meets most criteria and is very complete for writing in multiple languages, coding, gaming etc. in my opinion.

Please take a look at it and take it into consideration. :)

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/54832d373514adb1184506964213fee3

8
 
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So yeah,

Here´s my proposal. I wanted to do this for a long time already but never got round to it.

It´s inspired on the one ED likes in the first post and edited from _wb_´s proposal. I wanted a better compatibility with the Pandora than his so I shuffled some keys around, edited some keys left and right and ended up with this.

I'm very happy with the end result, I think it meets most criteria and is very complete for writing in multiple languages, coding, gaming etc. in my opinion.

Please take a look at it and take it into consideration. :)

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/54832d373514adb1184506964213fee3

8
Could you add a column for your proposal to the big comparison table? It's a good way to get semi-automatic feedback ;)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14mVNNzLhmhyA4sCIAPSoDv404xtctfLSiEMTtTlEzfw/edit#gid=1574311258
 
 I would use this if I would understand it. I know its not easy but you have to make a how-to if you want more reach.
It's not that hard. You just go to the right hand side of the table (column W or so), add your name, and type numbers in 'your' column. You look at the property on the left, if it's something you care about a lot, you give it a high number, otherwise you leave that row empty or give it a low number. If it's something you think is bad, then you can give it a negative number.

Your 'score' for each proposal is then automatically computed by making a big weighted sum over all properties. You should take into account that some properties are boolean (possible values are 0 and 1), while others have a larger range. If you give a weight of 10 to a boolean property, then proposals that have that property get +10 while proposals that don't have it get nothing. If you give a weight of 10 to a property that ranges from 0 to 8, then some proposals will get +80, so it will have much more impact and you may want to scale down your weights accordingly to compensate for that.
 
Okay thanks, was confused why the numbers some put into were out of the "MIN MAX" range.
 
 I would use this if I would understand it. I know its not easy but you have to make a how-to if you want more reach.
It's not that hard. You just go to the right hand side of the table (column W or so), add your name, and type numbers in 'your' column. You look at the property on the left, if it's something you care about a lot, you give it a high number, otherwise you leave that row empty or give it a low number. If it's something you think is bad, then you can give it a negative number.

Your 'score' for each proposal is then automatically computed by making a big weighted sum over all properties. You should take into account that some properties are boolean (possible values are 0 and 1), while others have a larger range. If you give a weight of 10 to a boolean property, then proposals that have that property get +10 while proposals that don't have it get nothing. If you give a weight of 10 to a property that ranges from 0 to 8, then some proposals will get +80, so it will have much more impact and you may want to scale down your weights accordingly to compensate for that.
still too confusing...
 
Sorry, My revised keyboard layout... I got some feedback and there was still room for improvement

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bdf33daff649f278104e533af4530f3f

It hurt my feelings to have to take the ß away from the S key and put it next to the B but I had to for consistancy in block dividing...

Hopefully you find it complete, easy to learn and work with, Pandora compatible in usage and easy on the eyes :)

No more double modifier keys so all those should be free for personal use.
 
I might be posting in the wrong thread, likely this post is totally worthless anyway and I definitely haven't read up on this thread up to this point as whatever layout you decide on I will destroy as soon as I get my hands on my Pyra.

But I want to share what changes I made to the Pandora keymap to make it "just work" for me. I.e. this is what I use daily and this will give some idea of what I'll be doing to the Pyra too, in time...

The change described in a moment has been incremental in many ways: I tweaked it to this point, but am unlikely to tweak further as no new needs have popped up for quite a while...

So... you will want to look at a Pandora when reading this, I'm typing this on mine.

X in gamekeys is enter, Y is space (real nice in many games), A and B are left and right mouse by default, but also joystick 1 or 2, joystick 1 or right Amiga, it all depends on what I want at a given moment for a given game or emu...

Gamekeys can be switched to second mode with CTRL-PowerswitchFlipRight, they become what I tag as "redundant weirdo keys" sometimes needed for games: CapsLock, NumLock,ScrollLock,Break/SysRq. It is just easier to have these behind a switch than not at all or in some SDL trickery...

The Pandora key is a Fn-like modifier for me. So Pandora+Up,Down does PageUp and PageDown, Pandora+Left,Right is Home,End.

Pandora+A,B,Y,X are keypad minus, kpplus, kpdel and kpenter. The minus and plus have proven really practical for throttling in for example flightsims.

Pandora is modifier, because I can easily reach it with both of my thumbs from either side of the keyboard when tabletyping. This modifier is mapped to two keys: right trigger is also Pandora except when triggers are switched to mousekeys.

CTRL is left shift (again reachable symmetrically), left trigger is also left shift except when swithed to mousebutton. Having modifier next to shift is important because they are often pressed at the same time (learned the hard way... crampy days...).

Triggers are switchable to mousekeys with keycombo ALT-powerflip right.

Because of the two powerswitch flip modes, I had to expose those flips to dwm status bar and also to software (so I know they are not on when I type in a password to locked screen) I did this by adding a couple of integer reading/writing proc-nodes. So now I can see at a glance what mode I am in from the screen. So, not confusing at all though all "switch modes" might seem like it at first.

But actually I use the extra modes quite rarely (mousetriggers more often, "redundant keys" practically never).

Anyway... last "game area" key: ALT is now a META for handling windows etc. It also allows me to control SDL (switching gamekeys A and B to joystick mode, panning, switching left nub and direction pad to joystick mode, etc.). And once again:good place for it, because of symmetry.

Now the main keyboard, it is practically totally rewritten as you can probably figure out already from the above:

Space is tab. I hate it that space takes up two keys. Easily reachable key gone to waste right there...

My numberkeys have the same shifted symbols as your regular PC US keyboard... took me all of 5 minutes to "unlearn" the odd Pandora default setup when I switched that... Numbers modded are functionkeys, of course.

Shift is left control, enter is right control (Why some of these changes? Answer to most: they are practical in case an emugame uses both and also reachable with both hands when I type on a desk).

LessThan is left ALT, GreaterThan is ALTGr (i.e. the right ALT).Fn is right shift (out of the way when thumbing, nice for the pinky on the desk).

The missing pieces are all behind the Fn-like Pandora modkey (or right trigger key).

Q is still Esc, but moving right from Q I got an actual numeric keypad while holding the mod. Again. nice for some sims. So: w,a,. --> keypad 7,4,1 etc. Keypad ends around halfway the keyboard, so g is ` and like its supposed to, shifted it gives a ~. Above it modded Y is INS, below it modded V is KPDOT. And after that I guess I'll just give you the symbols as it's pretty self explanatory:

uiop is -=\ and F12

hjkl is [];'

bnm is ,./

These work like in a PC US keyboard when shifted, so I often press both triggers, or when typing on a table just stick my thumb in Pandora and CTRL (they are nicely right there in the middle and next to each other, slighly distanced from others so no accidental presses :).

Especially the keypad area gets very little use, but when I sorted the keyboard I kind of figured "what the heck" and dumped it there because I had so many keys to spare. In fact I even got some national characters and the symbol ½ mapped to some modifierkeys for convenience.

I might do one final improvement: numeric keypad lock for some games which use NE, SE, SW and NW constantly for controlling (some old PC games do... not very interesting ones, though...).

Just thought I'd share this info in case it gives anyone any ideas. Sharing the actual setup would be quite a bit trickier, since it is a very hacky combination of kernel modifications (some of which I would not put into production as-is, but hey, these are for me me me ;-), xmodmapping and even some code changes to my WM and SDL - it all really interoperates and is not out-of-the-box usable as parts.

Oh... just looking at the original Pandora keys, I do not have brightness up/down - I got three levels, bright, medium, dim, which rotate by flicking the powerswitch right. And I don't do FnLocks ever... does anyone, really?-) So no key for that.

Powerswitch left puts my Pandora to low CPU speed, no WLAN, activate lockscreen, disable display. Returning powerswitch to middle wakes it up and asks for password.

Simply closing the lid keeps everything but the display up and running, usable when compiling or downloading...

But that last bit had nothing to do with keyboard. Sorry. Once again, I've rambled enough for now, ask in case you wonder about anything.
 
Sorry, My revised keyboard layout... I got some feedback and there was still room for improvement

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bdf33daff649f278104e533af4530f3f

It hurt my feelings to have to take the ß away from the S key and put it next to the B but I had to for consistancy in block dividing...

Hopefully you find it complete, easy to learn and work with, Pandora compatible in usage and easy on the eyes :)

No more double modifier keys so all those should be free for personal use.
I like the concept of your layout (it's more or less an extension of the Pandora layout, with fixes for what was just wrong on the Pandora), but in my opinion it has too many arbitrary symbols that most people don't need at all: ± ¢ § ¶ µ ¥ £ ß and dead cedilla / dead ring are things that are just too arbitrary and unimportant (in my opinion) to deserve getting a label on the keymat. Dead cedilla is not very useful since those who need it will rather map a dedicated Ç (and perhaps Ş) somewhere. Same for dead ring: if you need that, you will rather map a dedicated Å somewhere. All of those currency symbols, I wonder who really uses all of those. Even if you do stuff with different currencies professionally or something, you're probably rather going to use abbreviations like USD and GBP than those symbols.

In a sense, it does not hurt to have unnecessary symbols on the keymat: if you don't use them, you just don't use them. So it's mostly just a matter of æsthetics. But if you put important symbols like = on vowels, then you make it harder for people to map other things (like à or å or æ) on those vowels, because they have to start a recursive remapping nightmare.
 
Never used GBP instead of £ not just as £ is quicker


± µ would save me hitting compose sequences when making documentation


¥ why exclude the Japanese market


But is ß used in modern German?

If you put anything on letterkeys you mess up convention. People expect third-level modifier+letterbutton to do something differently than any one single solution.
Its fine looking at it I immediately realised how it worked without confusion


Why would you assume what people expect, not my expectation at all...
 
Because if you dictate that the third level modifier should do something, then it does _something else_ than the difference between already existing layouts. Which people come to expect.

A fixed map is limiting both for them, and its a quick way to shoot yourself in the leg, because its not as extencive, and you might even miss something.

Staying hidden on the third-level mods is the only way of being compatible.
 
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He's saying that meta s for example gets you a +/- symbol nothing more.
 
One has around 40 keys the other has around 100 keys.


This significant difference dictates you don't treat or expect them to be identical almost by definition.


Using (a single) symbol on letter keys is perfectly valid
 
You are counting wrong, and that definition is still yours to define. What im saying is third level mods either are, or arent as per expected.

You could make it a sensible default, but printing them is not that.

Edit: for reference http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/fe9096f8e4a39c98c386dc24912bd967

Getting a keyboard that doesnt work or look like a toy _even though_ its on a mobile device, would be a pleasant suprise. Allowing more people to type the way they know how.

Edit2:

If you dont have the keys to the right of P and L, then the user doesnt have any expected place to press äüö for german. Further asking the user to both press a mod to get them, and in the wrong place, doesnt explain why those keys couldnt be there in the first place.

If you go with a shortened A-Z layout, and meta instead of altGr and meta, then you end up with a lot of problems on the user-end.

If you go with AltGr and Meta, you get a known drawback in that its harder to press F-keys, since you have to press a button thats on the keyboard instead of the shoulder in between.

You get the benefit of AltGrmods not having to be printed, which is a cleaner approach and the AltGr mods can work as expected without an implied printed default.

You get to pick between the two.

Looking at the demographic, about half the users need something more than reduced layout, as seen in first question in this vote and nr7 here.

if you implement more of the typewriter-keys, you can at the same time get a keyboard thats more familiar to the english by using their defaults there.

Of the people that use F-keys. You inconvenience them when typing F-keys, in return for making the keyboard look cleaner.
 
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Never used GBP instead of £ not just as £ is quicker


± µ would save me hitting compose sequences when making documentation


¥ why exclude the Japanese market
I don't want to exclude any market, but I don't think we need explicit £ ¥ € ¢ symbols labeled on the keyboard just to "include markets". Why not
7px-Indian_Rupee_symbol.svg.png
฿ ден دج .د.ب د.ع د.ك ل.د  дин د.ت د.م.  د.إ Р ƒ   ج.م.        and all those other currency symbols out there?  Why exclude the Indian market? Why exclude the Russian market? And so on ;)

I'm a European but I have plenty of keyboards without an € symbol labeled and that's fine for me. I also have plenty of keyboards without ± and µ keys (in fact, I would have to search hard to find one). There are other mathematical symbols and other Greek letters that I would consider to be just as important.
 
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