Lol - Banned From Openpandora Forums


WizardStan

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Dunny said:
Yeah, RenegadeChic, this place also used to be spam-free.
I'm doing my best. :(
The license for the forum expires in January, at which point I believe there's a plan to buy a new one, one which will have better spam control, but that's entirely up to ED.
 
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renegadechic

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Dunny said:
Even then, I don't see the fanbase growing any larger than the GP2X at best.
i dont see it ever being the pinnacle of tech desire for sure but i think that this or a slightly more powerful version has some serious real world potential as a portable productivity device. if it could break into a more corporate line with the right software it could be really successful however its most likely to end up with standalone hobbyists who will find private and custom uses for the device, which is a shame. i mean there would be little to prevent a printer technician using the pandora as a diagnostic device to take around rather than a full laptop. i dont see much use for it in a medical environment as its not the easiest device to keep clean compared to a tablet. there are also the as yet unexplored music creation angles which could potentially be amazing.

but yeah, its hard to see it achieving something more corporate as companies are more likely to go with what they know which would be laptops with windows. then there is how to get the software they want or need on there and finally... i actually dont think the case is high quality enough to sell on that level.

so yeah, i think you are right, though i would be pretty happy for gp2x level!
 
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Exophase

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RenegadeChic said:
you called someone a prick and threatened to "pay him a visit" in what basically counts as his place of work and you are surprised? if this had been in person you would have had the police called on you, being made to go away hardly compares. anyway, its pretty obvious now that Craig has essentially nothing to do with pandora production any more, so i can assume people just enjoying having a whipping boy to deal with their ever so tragic problems

You're going entirely on his side of the story. You don't know what, if anything, was said to instigate this. And of course it's different if someone says they'll "visit" you online when they have no idea what your address is and obviously don't mean it.

To me it all comes down to this: for whatever the exchange was between UD and Craig, would he have still been banned if that exchange took place between him and someone else? Because I really, really doubt it. Admins are there for the benefit of everyone else, not to be elevated to special status where they get to dish out personal retribution to people who slight them. And no, I don't think being part of OPT should elevate him to that status either. He's just a shitty admin, and he's not even willing to display that he is one, further diminishing whatever responsibility and accountability he's perceived to be having.
 
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renegadechic

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Exophase said:
You're going entirely on his side of the story. You don't know what, if anything, was said to instigate this. And of course it's different if someone says they'll "visit" you online when they have no idea what your address is and obviously don't mean it.

I presumed that based on the comment UD made on here, whatever was said was likely accurately represented by Craig.

To me it all comes down to this: for whatever the exchange was between UD and Craig, would he have still been banned if that exchange took place between him and someone else? Because I really, really doubt it. Admins are there for the benefit of everyone else, not to be elevated to special status where they get to dish out personal retribution to people who slight them. And no, I don't think being part of OPT should elevate him to that status either. He's just a shitty admin, and he's not even willing to display that he is one, further diminishing whatever responsibility and accountability he's perceived to be having.
I only think this really stands if it is an online community like this forum. This forum is supposed to be managed by people who allow fair debate and freedom of speech etc, but the OpenPandora forums are there for their products and any community conversation is entertained to provide a controlled outlet if needed. There is really no requirement for Craig to stick to any rules that may apply here over there. Do I like it? It really depends whats being removed. Would I remove personal insults and menacing comments from my companies forum? Hell yes, I actually wouldn't allow any personal bitching about me at all both because I didn't like it but also because its really damaging to the project. No matter what a person's relationship is with a company, it is moronic to allow someone to flame to pieces and diminish your character for all to see. I think many cancellations and lots of bad karma has been caused from the days on here where people were just allowed to either destructively speculate or just rant about whatever promises they believed were broken. Any other big company would either do the same or simply wouldn't allow a vehicle for that kind of thing in the first place. We can all think of people with nothing good to say about the pandora or about Craig, but does that mean they should be free to say whatever on the OpenPandora forums?

Honestly, I do understand where you are coming from, but I really think they can do what they want on their forums, and they are all pretty justified in doing it really. All manufacturer forums are basically a totalitarian state and for their own products sake they should be. People play good mod bad mod, but what difference does it make ultimately? How would ED deal with people harassing him and his own character as frequently as people do Craig? Differently perhaps, but I would think him justified in taking any action he wanted to take.
 
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Exophase

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This isn't about whether or not they "can" do what they do what they want, this is about whether or not I think they're being assholes in the process. I'm not going to compare the forums to those of "any other company" because those don't have the company heads going on and taking everything personally while saying insulting things themselves. They tend to be governed by a consistent set of well defined rules enforced by some appointed party.

Like it or not those forums HAVE taken a lot of activity from these and it's a crying shame if they're compromised just because it's decided that they serve some other purpose, when the reality is that they only came into prominence due to Craig having a schism with these forums. Some guy calling Craig names on the forums isn't damaging to their product at all. For one thing I'd claim that Pandora's internet popularity is all but irrelevant so long as they're struggling to fulfill current demand, much less needing to generate new demand. But even if this matters, companies don't look bad when isolated individuals are being unreasonable to them. Instead they look bad when they go on personally fueled kicks like Craig does, and when they govern the forum that you claim represents them with inconsistent policies and shady practices.
 
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RenegadeChic said:
you called someone a prick and threatened to "pay him a visit" in what basically counts as his place of work and you are surprised? if this had been in person you would have had the police called on you, being made to go away hardly compares. anyway, its pretty obvious now that Craig has essentially nothing to do with pandora production any more, so i can assume people just enjoying having a whipping boy to deal with their ever so tragic problems

hehehe - forum drama eh?

I said, in reply to his comment in the Kim Jong Il thread where he wanted Mugabe dead for Christmas, 'And pricks who waste peoples time and money can GTFO too' or something very similar. As a kind of jibe/joke.

What happened was 2 months ago I requested an update on my RMA. Nothing.
I then asked ED if he was doing my RMA. He PM'ed me to say he wasn't sure (I couldn't remember my Pandora log in) and he would ask Jacqueline.
Later on that day (within a couple of hours) I made the jibe and got banned.
I then made this thread.
*edit* I then emailed openpandoraorders@gmail.com asking for an update.
Minutes after that I got an email offering me a refund (which I accepted but as the bank a/c that was used to pay for the Pandora was closed and could I have a cheque)

I made no 'veiled threats'. In this thread I said ' I'm in Newcastle in the New Year so I'll pop round for my Pandora personally :) ' because as I see it criag either owes me a refund (which his office suggested, I didn't request it) or a repaired Pandora.

I think I'll take some advice from Trading Standards on this, there is an office in my town.
I'll report back with their advice.
 
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FaeMinx

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RenegadeChic said:
hey i am not angry at all, was just saying :)

not that i think that they are massively comparable as people but i think you could compare it to the difference between having a go at an apple sales rep or having a go at steve jobs. sure the customer is always right if you are some sales rep and sales and you are practically as irrelevant as the customer but if you managed to come face to face with steve jobs (well not now obv) but you can be pretty sure he would probably tell you to piss off. sure you can berate those below you for poor customer service and causing you trouble, but if there is noone higher in the company to answer to, you can pretty much say what you want. is it good business? well, really the like it or lump it scenario applies. sure the pandora needs to have its orders, but it isn't exactly going to matter to them who it is on a personal level. hell, it would probably free up a pre-order in favour of a premium and benefit the company.

whats my point... hmm. well i guess ultimately Craig will do what he wants, people will be pushed away for getting aggressive and none of it will really matter. the angry people will try and win internet points, they wont get anything any time faster (apart from angrier) and it wont change anything. ED is already in control of things and from what i can tell, other than passing on order information and parts, there is no amount of raging at Craig that could possibly benefit anyone. at this stage, getting mad is only going to diminish a project you probably want to be a part of and if you don't then really people shouldn't have any time for your stirring.

since when was successfully trollbaiting something to be proud of? he bit and now you're banned *clapclapclap*? yawn. its a shame this forum spends more time being bitchy than positive since i seem to remember is being a really great, creative and enjoyable place not so long ago.

Hear hear! :)
 
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WizardStan

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Unfathomable Depths said:
I think I'll take some advice from Trading Standards on this, there is an office in my town.
I'll report back with their advice.
They'll tell you that you are due either the thing you paid for or a refund. Since a refund has been offer the advice will probably be to take it.

Regarding the "visit" comment, I had a feeling that that's what he was referring to, which means the ban happened even before the "threat" (which I wouldn't actually consider a threat but I could understand and appreciate how someone a little paranoid might think so). So you were banned by Craig just for calling him a prick which, while certainly not a sign of an upstanding citizen, is hardly what I would call a banable offense. I've been called worse. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've been called worse by Craig.
 
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notaz

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And here we go again, a game of who has been called worse by Craig, even if you sink hundreds of hours for his cause, you still get to play. At least the influence is fading away.
 

Exophase

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WizardStan said:
Sorry, you're right. It was uncalled for.

I don't think he was criticizing you, just showing that even he has been called names by Craig despite all he's done for the project.
 
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skeezix

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Yeup, thats for sure ;)

The only way to win is to just accept that everyone on the net will, eventually, get called names by Craig, and just ignore it ;) I think this is akin to Wowbqagger from Hitchhkeers Guide, whose goal is to go, in order, and insult every single person in the universe:
http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Wowbagger

He seems a decent enough bloke, just.. something is unhinged there, and he doesn't have that sense of when not to say what is in his mind, like other people have; maybe thats a good thing -- he speaks his mind, but its certainly a trouble maker, and we've all been under the lash, despite how many thousands of hours of work we've done for him over the decade :p

jeff
 

DisgruntleElf

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It was never about Craig's influence. It's about the impact Pandora has on this community.
Might I recommend a book: Influence: Science and Practice by Robert B. Cialdini. Very easily attainable at any local library. Craig whether knowingly or not used some professional sales techniques on this community since the inception of the Craiginator. He successfully kept enforcing the idea that Pandora was a community project. He continuously started threads asking for suggestions and advice but most importantly he kept the community informed as to Pandora's progress. He bonded his Pandora with this community. It even escalated to the point that any criticism about Pandora was the same as a personal attack on the community. So why has everything changed? Mostly because the 'brainwashing' of Pandora and community hasn't been maintained in some time and Craig himself has certainly lost interest in Pandora. Still after 3 years some community members hold on to their preorders(even willing to lose their money) and developers still work on Pandora for no money(except for odd community donations). So is it because of Craig's influence or has he successfully sold you on that giving up on Pandora is the same as giving up on the community?
 

Dunny

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DisgruntleElf said:
Mostly because the 'brainwashing' of Pandora and community hasn't been maintained in some time and Craig himself has certainly lost interest in Pandora. Still after 3 years some community members hold on to their preorders(even willing to lose their money) and developers still work on Pandora for no money(except for odd community donations). So is it because of Craig's influence or has he successfully sold you on that giving up on Pandora is the same as giving up on the community?

Um, I don't know what you're smoking, but I want some. Many developers are not motivated by money - why can they not just write software for the Pandora for fun? I do - although I only have 2 apps on the repo, I've many more in various stages of development and I do it just because I enjoy doing it. If I want money, I go to work!

Anyway, this is rapidly getting off topic - the problem those boards have is this:

Craig is able to ban people despite having the appearance of a normal member

And that is bloody worrying and a good reason to reconsider membership of that forum.

D.
 
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renegadechic

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Dunny said:
And that is bloody worrying and a good reason to reconsider membership of that forum.
Well, I wouldn't say its that worrying. He isn't gonna have to arrested and tortured or anything. If his behaviour is unethical then at most its just annoying. I think if it were straightforward for people to leave in favour of another forum, they simply would have stayed here. However one or two people leaving or updating here just isn't enough to take the discussions anywhere else effectively.
 
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To be fair, I probably deserved a yellow card - unsportsmanlike behaviour - but I won't contest the sending off.

Craig can keep his £200. I think he needs it more than me. I hope he doesn't lose his house over the project - because it was cracking fun :)

I'll miss my Pandora though. Lovely bit of kit

@Dunny - I need to visit www.yakyak.org more often - the fluffiest of forums

Merry Xmas,
UD

PS - Can't wait for the book
 

Dunny

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Unfathomable Depths said:
Craig can keep his £200. I think he needs it more than me. I hope he doesn't lose his house over the project - because it was cracking fun :)

I'll miss my Pandora though. Lovely bit of kit

That is a shame. I'm beginning to genuinely feel bad about having anything to do with Craig's project after his behaviour. This is likely because you and I, although not friends in RL, got on quite well and have some common background in YY.

I shall spend my xmas thinking seriously about whether or not to continue to develop for the Pandora. Very sad to see you go :(

D.
 
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Exophase

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Why would you punish all of Pandora's userbase over things Craig has said or done?
 

DisgruntleElf

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Dunny said:
Um, I don't know what you're smoking, but I want some. Many developers are not motivated by money - why can they not just write software for the Pandora for fun? I do - although I only have 2 apps on the repo, I've many more in various stages of development and I do it just because I enjoy doing it. If I want money, I go to work!

Actually I was referring to the developers like notaz who work on the OS which I'm sure is all headache and no fun. But it seems you have a dilemma on your hands. Honor your fellow community member or stop developing and let the community down. Wait, you develop for fun so this shouldn't be a hard choice. Right?


Exophase said:
Why would you punish all of Pandora's userbase over things Craig has said or done?

Absolutely. It's not about Craig. It's about the community and Pandora is a community project. If Dunny stops developing he'd be letting the community down. Craig has done such a magnificent headjob on this forum.
 
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Dunny

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DisgruntleElf said:
Dunny said:
Um, I don't know what you're smoking, but I want some. Many developers are not motivated by money - why can they not just write software for the Pandora for fun? I do - although I only have 2 apps on the repo, I've many more in various stages of development and I do it just because I enjoy doing it. If I want money, I go to work!

Actually I was referring to the developers like notaz who work on the OS which I'm sure is all headache and no fun. But it seems you have a dilemma on your hands. Honor your fellow community member or stop developing and let the community down. Wait, you develop for fun so this shouldn't be a hard choice. Right?

You're right - there's no choice at all. Back to Yakyak I go :)

D.
 
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