More Pandora 2 crap (MicroSD Split)


The current design they're working with is 3 microSD slots, one internal. They probably won't move away from 3 slots. Arguing for them to have two full SD slots is hopeless. The more you do that the more you'll get back pictures showing "look how big these two SD cards are!", you're not going to see Craig say "well we'll look at just one full SD slot then." It's us who have to compromise, otherwise we're just making his position easier to defend...


Doesn't matter how trivial widening it seems to us, obviously they want it as close to iCP2 size as possible.

Please, find a citation -anywhere- from -any team member- that states or even directly implies a three slot device.


There was a thought in the community that since (at that time) NAND was expensive, it would be neat to simply remove the NAND and put a 3rd slot in a Pandora to handle that function.


To my knowledge there is no statement from anyone that officially states the Pandora 2 will be a three slot device.


If we are looking at a no on-board NAND Pandora 2 (one slot MUST be boot), the thought was to internalize the boot card.


You want two full sized SDXC slots. So do I.


You think the Pandora 2 is going to be two SDXC and one internal microSD. If it really is a three slot device, I'd have to live with that.


But if I'm right and it really is just a two slot machine - do you really want either of them to be microSD?


IMHO: Two full size SDXC slots is better than three microSD slots.
 
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It is not a problem to swap micrrosd cards around as compared to full size SD cards. Millions of people do it on their phones every day, including myself.


Admittedly, microsd are easier to lose, but that can be solved with a microsd card carrier that holds several at once.


There are advantages and disadvantages to both, but neither option makes the P2 "unusable", and the hysteric reactions here are ungrounded.
 
I'll just drop this little quote right here.

...


Of course, as Exo said, if the design is limited by PCB space, last I checked the footprint of a microSD card is less than half that of a fullSD card. However, assuming the SoC has a limited number of SD/MMC controllers, replacing a fullSD card with 2x microSD cards would not really work despite possibly saving a little space.

Interesting that you'd post something from July and a different thread now, rather than posting that first in this thread instead of what you posted below (late to the party).

Woiuldn't this be the best compromise?

I think the versatility to accept either size does appeal, but as Grench has pointed out microSD cards have SD adapters but not vice versa. This interchangeability problem strikes against having different sized external slots.


And while I don't hate microSD I do share in the spirit that their size sucks to handle. So why compromise?
Also interesting because it ignores potential daughterboards/controllers options meant to solve that problem.

Overgauss, on 10 October 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:


By bringing up Apple you just acknowledged that form factor is a consideration.


A consideration for executives in big companys that want a share in a not totally saturated market, but we're in a very small niche here, where sourrounding parameters can't be compared directly.
If you don't understand the allure of formfactor and how it effects purchasing decisions and want to confine the success of the project based on sales to "a very small niche" then full steam ahead imo. Meanwhile most every consumer product will be trimming the fat where it is feasible to do so. Cars (e.g., the Smart Car), laptops, computers, ebook readers, tablets, phones, slim versions of gaming consoles, HDTV's, computer monitors, and more all acknowledge that form factor is a consideration. As a result they are getting smaller where it matters and is most feasible to do so.

Overgauss, on 10 October 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:


Most of your preference issues can be solved with a usb cable or card adapter. With sufficient card slots on the P2 you wouldn't have to swap cards with your car radio. Just clone the data.


That would counteract the whole idea of having a almost pocketble portable device. If I have to drag a bunch of adapters a long to keep the versitility of the device at the same level as its predecessor, the devices attraction levels goes down. And what about "the just clone your data" point ?


All in all, with this two sentences your are weakening your own argumentation: Scrapping a/the full size SD slot will lead to needs for a adapter and the need to clone data.
You don't need to bring a bunch of adapters anywhere. At most just bring the one that you need. I'm saying you don't even need them because you can clone the data. MP3's on your SD card in your car radio? Great, before you leave, pop out the SD card and copy the data onto your Pandy. Now you can just leave the SD card in your radio and the MicroSD in the Pandy. It's basically device synchronization and not even novel. I would just copy my mp3's from my laptop to my Pandy and SD card at the same time. The music would be in both locations at the same time.


I don't call it a feature that everytime I want to listen to music on my Pandora I'd first have to pop out the SD card from my radio, then pop it into the Pandora. Then on the return trip I would pop out the SD card from my Pandora and pop it into the SD slot of my car radio. I would just clone the data. I'm not sure why it's more preferable not to do so and it's somehow more preferable to pop cards in and out multiple times a day.

Overgauss, on 10 October 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:


I brought up tablets because I'm sure those people probably weighed the issue too. Maybe even did some focus testing. That's why I'm asking for other metrics in addition to preferences to weigh in on the issue. Cost, size, functionality, usage etc. My preferences for instance, would be to forego SD if I could trade bluetooth, micro hdmi as well as micro usb 3.0 for it (if it turned out that would be the type of trade off I'd have to make).


Don't know what to make of this (not meant offensive). At least the video out and the ext. peripherals bus are some of the very few points where the community and craig agree with each other that they will be/stay in P2 - so there out of the equation anyway.


Regarding tablets: If they did, "they" don't understand their own product. So lets preach again: Tablets -> build for a specific set of usecases, Pandor -> jack of all trades
Potentially jack of all trades to a very small and niche group.
 
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Literally five posts in a row, including big quote dumps where you add nothing. This is not the kind of thing people want to slog through. Do you have no grasp of forum etiquette?

I'm just going to repeat this.

3x. That deserves a quote pyramid.
Then you guys literally don't know what the word literally means. It couldn't be used as an exaggeration in this case, otherwise grench would flip a bit!


Edit: Kinda neat how one can change their minds and be cool about it. (Emphasis mine.)

Binky, on 01 October 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:


Screen should be WXGA 16:10, not FHD


Audio may be good enough already


I think wowing people is largely about unusual details - he pandora was (and is) unusual because of the keyboard - game controls combo


on the topic of raided micro SD, a pair of microSD cards has an advantage compared to a single SD card; they won't die at exactly the same time.


I wouldn't mind:


full SDXC (external)


quad microSD RAID 5 (
internal)


RAID and pocket computing don't go together, which is a good reason why they should!
 
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You don't need to bring a bunch of adapters anywhere. At most just bring the one that you need. I'm saying you don't even need them because you can clone the data. MP3's on your SD card in your car radio? Great, before you leave, pop out the SD card and copy the data onto your Pandy. Now you can just leave the SD card in your radio and the MicroSD in the Pandy. It's basically device synchronization and not even novel. I would just copy my mp3's from my laptop to my Pandy and SD card at the same time. The music would be in both locations at the same time.

Yes, you can copy data. I know that.


Here's a scenario:


I want to 'clone the data' off an SD card from a friends camera


I take the music/video/roms SD card out of my P2


I put in the one from the friends camera


I copy the relevant photos accross


I notice that the above is impossible because my P2 only does microSD and I don't carry adaptors with me at all times


Here's another:


Its 2020


MicroSD card capacity has maxed out due to the number of pins on old 2014 cards


The P3 turned out to be a phone to compete with offerenings from amazon and samsung


I want to store some big files on my old P2, but there isn't much room


I just swap out one of my old 128GB cards, and put in the other


I snap it, because its actually a micrSD card, and I've been handling it too much


...


===


These are what I would like to see in a P2

  • full USB 3.0 A
  • 1080p HDMI out
  • 1280x800 LED display
  • full-size SDXC 4.0 support
  • BT 4.0
  • IR
  • microUSB3.0 B
  • microSDXC
  • 3.5mm stereo in and out jacks
  • OpenGL compatible graphics
  • A processor shared with another open-source project (e.g. a Tegra 3 T33) as LTS
  • a modular expansion system based on USB 3.0, withnew modules produces once or twice a year
  • Documentation
  • Standardisation


I don't know how feasible this would be, but it does not seem hugely unrealistic
 
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Binky, I counter your what-if scenario with one of mine.


Your friend uses a camera (from 2009!) that has a MicroSD slot and all is well in the universe. Or uses his cellphone to take photos. :/ Or you just use a usb cable without swapping anything, or having to worry that you pop out the right SD card so as to have enough room to copy his data over to the card that you "leave in".


It's 2020 and they still make adapters. You still snap your MicroSD card because you continue to handle it when you never needed to. The times you actually needed to swap cards, you ogre thumb it. But it's ok because you have a backup of data that is important to you.
 
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Here's arguing - Grench style:


The P2 will have swap-in processors


in 2020 it will have a massively fast, powerful, multi-cored arm chip available


To boot of this and get the best possible performance...


... I need to boot off SDXC 4.0


Nothing else will do. Ever


--


Word from OPt on the possibility of modular expansion would be nice, but I doubt we'll get it...
 
But da cloud! It haz rams!


Edit:

These are what I would like to see in a P2
  • full USB 3.0 A
  • 1080p HDMI out
  • 1280x800 LED display
  • full-size SDXC 4.0 support
  • BT 4.0
  • IR
  • microUSB3.0 B
  • microSDXC
  • 3.5mm stereo in and out jacks
  • OpenGL compatible graphics
  • A processor shared with another open-source project (e.g. a Tegra 3 T33) as LTS
  • a modular expansion system based on USB 3.0, withnew modules produces once or twice a year
  • Documentation
  • Standardisation

I like it! I want to add touchscreen or wacom pen on a screen that flips so that I can write on it. Then the Pandy is actually a a jack of all trades as I can now write/draw/navigate on/with it. Of course that means at this point I'm describing a convertible tablet. But I didn't hold that against the Sharp Zaurus, although I did hold it against me.


Edit: Actually I'd give up a card slot of either type if it means I get more tech on the unit.
 
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Then you guys literally don't know what the word literally means. It couldn't be used as an exaggeration in this case, otherwise grench would flip a bit!

No, I do actually know what literally means, I just miscounted (or someone removed one of your posts). You have literally posted four times in a row twice now, though. And three times in a row multiple times. Etc. It's ridiculous.
 
These are what I would like to see in a P2

  • full USB 3.0 A
  • 1080p HDMI out
  • 1280x800 LED display
  • above with high precision, high sensitivity, stylus-friendly touchscreen
  • scree should lock hinge at 0, 120 and 180
  • full-size SDXC 4.0 support
  • BT 4.0
  • IR
  • microUSB3.0 B
  • microSDXC
  • 3.5mm stereo in and out jacks
  • OpenGL compatible graphics
  • A processor shared with another open-source project (e.g. a Tegra 3 T33) as LTS
  • a modular expansion system based on USB 3.0, with new modules produces once or twice a year
  • Documentation
  • Standardisation



improved version. Wouldn't a strong lock at 120 degrees be good enough for drawing on?


Will experiment...
 
Then you guys literally don't know what the word literally means. It couldn't be used as an exaggeration in this case, otherwise grench would flip a bit!

No, I do actually know what literally means, I just miscounted (or someone removed one of your posts). You have literally posted four times in a row twice now, though. And three times in a row multiple times. Etc. It's ridiculous.

Err. I'm replying to 4 different people including yourself. How do you do it? Obviously your stance would be not to reply to each post separately. That would go against "forum etiquette." If I somehow was able to make one block of text before someone replied, it would just be too large for you to read anyway and the problem remains.


Quotedumps imply that more than one topic or thought is being addressed. How do you suggest responding to a post when the post in question is a quotedump itself?


E: clarificationizing
 
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I don't know if you're seriously asking me or if you're just being defensive and arguing, but:


1) You can respond to multiple people in the same post. This forum even lets you edit your posts without indicating it. I thought the forum automerged consecutive posts too, but as we can all see it doesn't.


2) There's no need to quote a huge wall of text if you're just responding to a small part of it. At the very least trim what the quoted text is quoting. But if you're just adding a couple words you probably need to think carefully about whether or not the post is even worth making.


3) NEVER quote some big post while adding literally nothing. (See, I do know what that word means. Stuff like this is outrageous.)


4) If you're making a bunch of posts in a row you probably need to relax and give someone else a chance to talk. It's not like you're leaving this forum for weeks then catching up on several old posts, you are doing this constantly.
 
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Exophase. The post you are responding to is 3 lines long. Three. You can't even read that. No wonder you feel certain posts add nothing, when you can not read (digest) anything. You don't even understand how to use constantly right. For instance I had a post on page three, took a break and found the thread was now on page TEN. It's not a matter of giving someone time to talk. It's a matter of playing catch-up and responding to newer posts. Finally if your behaviour causes the behaviour you don't like to see...Stop your behaviour rather than commenting on things over and over that are tangential at best to the topic at hand. Just because you don't understand what is being said doesn't mean that what was said is of no value (or needs your comment permission or comment whatsoever). Point out what you think is "adding literally nothing" (lol there goes that word again) and I'll try to clarify the issue in terms you can understand.

Err. I'm replying to 4 different people including yourself. How do you do it?
By including only the source information that is important to my reply.

How do you suggest responding to a post when the post in question is a quotedump itself?
Just like this.

Why don't you do the same then? Oh I guess it's because we're talking about me and not about you.
 
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So now you're criticizing me for not quoting you? And you're saying not quoting means I didn't read what you wrote? I didn't quote you because the context doesn't require it. This is common forum style. Look around.


But what this really amounts to is that you can't take criticism so you go on a defensive bitch fest trying to attack me with anything you can muster. It's pathetic. You think I'm the only one who is tired of the way you post? I tried to give you some useful advice, but if you want to be like this then I don't really care if you end up getting banned.


You want me to tell you what was literally nothing? I LINKED TO THE POST. You are fucking hopeless.


Oh by the way, your huge font emphasis is extremely obnoxious too.
 
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1) You can respond to multiple people in the same post. This forum even lets you edit your posts without indicating it. I thought the forum automerged consecutive posts too, but as we can all see it doesn't.
Only when it is within a short period (perhaps a minute or two, I've never verified) of the original posting.
 
0


Just kidding, I don't support censorship. :) But I'm all for making a "trash" forum and tossing it there...


@Overgauss


I don't care what you find interesting, you don't understand my statements anyway (for whatever reason). I wasn't introducing the SoC limitations quote to quash anyone's arguments, I don't know squat about hardware on that kind of a low level. That person could have been entirely wrong for all I know. I'll tell you straight I'm not going to bother explaining to you my quote of another post from July, I just don't think you'd get it.


I DO understand form factor, and I appreciate that the population at large desires smaller and smaller all the time. I will join the other voices here to say, I am not one of those people. *crosses fingers and hopes you understand* ><


EDIT: Ok, I'll add that I DO see the connection between popularity and success of OP2 -- cash flow. I get that, and I'm all for SOME compromise... I just don't see ONLY microSD as any kind of compromise... external storage is a pretty important factor IMHO, too important to give all the way in. Otherwise, let's just make a modular and open Android phone (minus the phone) with a keyboard, that's what Craig seems to want anyhow...


EDIT EDIT: And I agree that your quote dumps and general posting style are just plain obnoxious.
 
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Also interesting because it ignores potential daughterboards/controllers options meant to solve that problem.
The P2 will be a lot smaller than P1, so where to put it ?

If you don't understand the allure of formfactor and how it effects purchasing decisions and want to confine the success of the project based on sales to "a very small niche" then full steam ahead imo. Meanwhile most every consumer product will be trimming the fat where it is feasible to do so. Cars (e.g., the Smart Car), laptops, computers, ebook readers, tablets, phones, slim versions of gaming consoles, HDTV's, computer monitors, and more all acknowledge that form factor is a consideration. As a result they are getting smaller where it matters and is most feasible to do so.
First, not everything gets smaller - cars aren't getting smaller, TVs aren't getting smaller (in fact they are getting bigger at least in two dimensions as produng LCD TVs in bigger sizes is a lot cheaper than producing big tube-TVs), Laptops are also not getting smaller - there are the ultrabooks now, but my first laptop was even thinner than an ultrabook is now (ok maybe not thinner than any ultraboook). Cellphones are also not getting smaller now, I had a cellphone 7 or 8 years ago that was third the size. At that time people began to come up with jokes that in the near future people have to worry about not swallong their phones. So maybe getting everything smaller isn't always the best solution ? And who the f.. says that it is in everyones favour that things get smaller ? People are complaining that the Pandora has no 4 cpu cores, while their phone has them, but people don't tend do ask why their phone needs 4 cpu cores (with no software available that will use it). Maybe the mass isn't always right ?


Maybe I'm a member of dying species but I would not wan't the P2 be a lot smaller. Not that I would not like it if my P2 would fit easily in my pocket - but the P1 fits barely in my Hands (having average sized hands), and playing is ok for a extend period of time. But making it smaller, will make it painfull to play. As it seems you like comparing things to "the big companies" - look at size of game controllers of the current console generation - are they very small - so even children can hold them easily ? No, because Nintendo, MS, etc. decided that their controllers need a certain size.


I don't want to confine the Pandora success to a small niche, I'm just realistic. The Pandora 2 will never be a mass market device - why ? Because the Pandora simply can't compete with big companies. Craig says that he wants the Pandora to be the best/powerfull Handheld console by the time it is released. But for how long this will last - maybe six months ? Till apple announces the 8/9...50th iteration of the IPhone with more powerfull hardware, so hardwise the competetion is insane. I know about modularity and as the idea has some genius in it, hard to believe that craig wants to produce/sell new SoC Modules every half a year. Leaving out the cost - craig says that the P2 will probably cost about 600-700€ - fair price, but not competitive in any way. The market will simply not care wether it is made with love by a small company or an evil empire.


So why scrap all that makes the P2 attractive and disticts it from the mass market ?

You don't need to bring a bunch of adapters anywhere. At most just bring the one that you need.
true I exaggerated, but having the need for a adapter at all defeats the purpose of a portable device.

I'm saying you don't even need them because you can clone the data. MP3's on your SD card in your car radio? Great, before you leave, pop out the SD card and copy the data onto your Pandy. Now you can just leave the SD card in your radio and the MicroSD in the Pandy. It's basically device synchronization and not even novel. I would just copy my mp3's from my laptop to my Pandy and SD card at the same time. The music would be in both locations at the same time.


I don't call it a feature that everytime I want to listen to music on my Pandora I'd first have to pop out the SD card from my radio, then pop it into the Pandora. Then on the return trip I would pop out the SD card from my Pandora and pop it into the SD slot of my car radio. I would just clone the data. I'm not sure why it's more preferable not to do so and it's somehow more preferable to pop cards in and out multiple times a day.
Thats strange, most of the time you write that we have to watch the market and see what it does. And now you want it the other way round ? Having data redudant in several places (and that has nothing to dow with device synchronization at all)? Its also impracticle, having to keep my car radio sd card with me every time, because there is a small probablity I'll by some new music this night that I wan't to hear the next morning during a car ride.


It still lowers versatility not having a full sized SD-Slot. Full size cards won't go away in the next few years, at least no one came up with a reason for it. And it's just a lot easier beeing on holiday and browse through a lot of pictures with my Pandora. My tablet could not help with it - yeah I know the adapter (who wants to carry and adapter with him all the time?)
 
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