New Site > Gp2x Vs Psp


DaveC posted on Oct 20 2005 at 02:11 AM said:
It is obviously biased. The PSP is much more powerful than the GP2X. 333 MHz +166 MHz on PSP vs one full 200 MHz plus one crippled 200 MHZ core on GP2X, PSP wins. There is no 3D chip in the GP2X either. Very misleading. Doesn't matter to me though I will have both.

Is the PSP much more powerful than the GPX2

PSP = 125 Dmips
N64 = 125 Dmips
PS1 = 30 Dmips
DS = 300 Dmips
Arm 11 = 650 Dmips
Game Cube = 1125 Dmips

btw The DS is a arm9e
 
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As someone who's studied microprocessor architecture, let me say the an ARM is superior to a MIPS. Condition execution and compressable code (Thumb mode) can do alot to improve performance. Also, the R4000 is a little lacking in the area of floating point performance. Although, in truth, the PSP has a dedicated graphics processor, which makes the biggest difference.
 
Digital Awakening posted on Oct 19 2005 at 10:03 PM said:
Custom Memory Stick PRO Duo <- nothing custom about it, any brand should work.

Well it kind of is custom, there are only 3 brands of memory sticks pro duo (sony,lexar and sandisk) and the sony and lexar both come from the same manufacturer. Sandisk and Lexar also pay heavy licenses to sony. They are basically for the same technology as SD/minisd simply in a diffferent shaped 'custom' piece of plastic casing (hence the licensing) that is strangely a lot more expensive to manufacturer?

I think 'overpriced proprietory' format would have been a more accurate term than custom... or SD in Sony custom casing ;-)

The use of their 'proprietory' format was a major negative for me regarding the PSP, but if you had to deal with their reps you would understand why I don't even consider buying their sh^t.
 
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The PSP is not a "Clear Winner" in the CPU bracket. The ARM9 architecture achieves more work per MHz than does the R4xxx CPU architecture, so the 200 MHz clockrate does not indicate lower performance than a 222 MHz CPU in the PSP. It may even be faster than the R4xxx architecture at 333 MHz -- it will easily outperform a PocketPC's XScale CPU at >600 MHz already! MIPS' Rxxxx architectures are a very old technology pushed too far to take advantage of simplicity of programming, low cost and easy performance jumps by raising the clockrate rather than engineering a better, more efficient and more task-specific architecture. Its inadequacy for portable electronics is readily demonstrated by how it tears through the PSP's battery-- on the GP2x, the ARM9's use scarcely over ONE WATT each, the backlight on the LCD panel seems to significantly outclass them in terms of total power draw. ARM is an architecture specifically made for low-power, low-heat conditions.

Also, the 2nd PSP "CPU" you list is not a CPU, it's a GPU. It can only do graphical operations, and therefore won't be useful for the same tasks. It'd be a waste in most any 2D game, where raw sprite placement and arithmetic speed are critical, not how many triangles or textured polygons can be rendered in a frame. The GP2x, in addition to its 2nd ARM9 core (the ARM940T) also has a 2D graphics processor, dedicated audio/video decoding core, and video post-processor.

Also saying the PSP has no emulator support is well, not true. The emulators are primitive, underdeveloped, slow, and Sony is trying to suppress them at all times-- but they do exist. The GP2x will have the advantage here when it's out and SDL emulators are ported over, and custom ones like DrMD are brought over to the new platform. Right now, though, the two cannot be compared directly.

It's also worth mentioning raising the CPU in the PSP back to its spec of 333 MHz significantly impacts battery life.
 
When are people going to stop directly comparing mhz to mhz for diffrent cpu architectures? It's VERY misleading. You need to at least factor in how many instructions the cpu can handle per clock cycle and how many operations performed by each instruction. There's also different architectual design choices than will effect performance so stop spreading the megahertz myth <_<
 
DaveC posted on Oct 20 2005 at 03:11 AM said:
The PSP is much more powerful than the GP2X. 333 MHz +166 MHz on PSP vs one full 200 MHz plus one crippled 200 MHZ core on GP2X, PSP wins.

Please explain why you think the second 200MHZ core on the GP2X is crippled? Less cache and no MMU isn't really crippling it as such (the mmu would be rarely used if Linux wasn't installed anyway).
 
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Heh - maybe the GP3 will have a bunch of FPGAs that can be set to do whatever job you like, rather than specific processors doing specific jobs. Nothing else will silence the "I'd have preferred X processor arrangement to the Y setup they've gone with" ;)
 
Squidge posted on Oct 20 2005 at 07:39 AM said:
DaveC posted on Oct 20 2005 at 03:11 AM said:
The PSP is much more powerful than the GP2X. 333 MHz +166 MHz on PSP vs one full 200 MHz plus one crippled 200 MHZ core on GP2X, PSP wins.

Please explain why you think the second 200MHZ core on the GP2X is crippled? Less cache and no MMU isn't really crippling it as such (the mmu would be rarely used if Linux wasn't installed anyway).

And you certainly can't just add up clockrates and call it a faster machine like that, either. I have a 2.2 GHz A64 X2 in this machine, that's 2 2.2 GHz CPU cores, then a GPU at 500 MHz, yet I can't add them together and say I have the speed of a 4.9 GHz CPU in a nonmultithreaded program that doesn't do any graphics work. :D

It's always ridiculous when people make that claim just adding up every clockrate in the machine.
 
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Epicenter posted on Oct 20 2005 at 01:07 PM said:
The PSP is not a "Clear Winner" in the CPU bracket. The ARM9 architecture achieves more work per MHz than does the R4xxx CPU architecture, so the 200 MHz clockrate does not indicate lower performance than a 222 MHz CPU in the PSP. It may even be faster than the R4xxx architecture at 333 MHz -- it will easily outperform a PocketPC's XScale CPU at >600 MHz already! MIPS' Rxxxx architectures are a very old technology pushed too far to take advantage of simplicity of programming, low cost and easy performance jumps by raising the clockrate rather than engineering a better, more efficient and more task-specific architecture. Its inadequacy for portable electronics is readily demonstrated by how it tears through the PSP's battery-- on the GP2x, the ARM9's use scarcely over ONE WATT each, the backlight on the LCD panel seems to significantly outclass them in terms of total power draw. ARM is an architecture specifically made for low-power, low-heat conditions.

Also, the 2nd PSP "CPU" you list is not a CPU, it's a GPU. It can only do graphical operations, and therefore won't be useful for the same tasks. It'd be a waste in most any 2D game, where raw sprite placement and arithmetic speed are critical, not how many triangles or textured polygons can be rendered in a frame. The GP2x, in addition to its 2nd ARM9 core (the ARM940T) also has a 2D graphics processor, dedicated audio/video decoding core, and video post-processor.

And these hardware coprocessors of GP2x are very intriguing. For example the "video processor" is not just a dump decode/encode device. It has various hardware blocks for such things like "VLD/VLC, DCT/IDCT, Q/IQ, ME, MP, MC, De-Block, De-Ring" and its signal path is not hardwired. This is why here is a second Arm9 core (the 940T) to control those. The "2d processor" is interesting as well and there is more.

Epicenter posted on Oct 20 2005 at 01:07 PM said:
Also saying the PSP has no emulator support is well, not true. The emulators are primitive, underdeveloped, slow, and Sony is trying to suppress them at all times-- but they do exist. The GP2x will have the advantage here when it's out and SDL emulators are ported over, and custom ones like DrMD are brought over to the new platform. Right now, though, the two cannot be compared directly.

This is thing I don't have any experience with.

Epicenter posted on Oct 20 2005 at 01:07 PM said:
It's also worth mentioning raising the CPU in the PSP back to its spec of 333 MHz significantly impacts battery life.

This seems true and we should not forgot about the UMC drive. It's an another power sucker and better yet the UMC's disks are read only. There is also the Sony's policy about "homebrew development". Basically the PSP is just a medium to sell content in a form of UMC disks. This is a Sony's business plan and we have already seen it'll defend it. Fair enough for them perhaps but why deal with a company who basically is showing a middle finger at you? :huh:
 
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Epicenter -
Actually, the PSP emus tend to be pretty good -- from what little I've fiddled with them, Genesis and TG16 are solid, and certainly my CaSTaway port is pretty impressive. The GPU does 2d very well - big bank of video RAM full of sprites performs well, with all the GPU effects (alpha, stretch etc).

Making a website to compare is really an ugly thing, so there isn't a "clear" winner; it all "depends" on a lot.

I'm glad to have a dozen various handhelds, that I never have time to fire up :)

jeff
 
Epicenter posted on Oct 20 2005 at 01:35 PM said:
It's always ridiculous when people make that claim just adding up every clockrate in the machine.

I wasn't really adding them up as in 200 +200 = 400 MHz. I was mainly stating 200 and 200, 333 AND 166. I shouldn't have used a plus sign though as when that is done everyone thinks "equation" . I did it to save typing, but now that I had to type this to explain, I lose :p
 
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skeezix posted on Oct 20 2005 at 03:47 PM said:
Epicenter -
Actually, the PSP emus tend to be pretty good -- from what little I've fiddled with them, Genesis and TG16 are solid, and certainly my CaSTaway port is pretty impressive. The GPU does 2d very well - big bank of video RAM full of sprites performs well, with all the GPU effects (alpha, stretch etc).


jeff

Do you think that SNES will always be better on the PSP? How about the transparencies, isn't the PSP GPU better suited for those at a faster speed?
 
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I belive daveC you were asked this
Please explain why you think the second 200MHZ core on the GP2X is crippled? Less cache and no MMU isn't really crippling it as such (the mmu would be rarely used if Linux wasn't installed anyway).

I am finding it increasing funnier your psp fandom. You talk about the PSP as being 333Mhz+166Mhz when its underclocked to 222Mhz(for a reason). and then talk about the GPX2 having one 200Mhz and having a crippled one. The do your usual dev for the PSP thing. Have you no shame.

You present the facts as the PSP being 500Mhz and the GPX2 as being 200Mhz. When it is probably more(as) sensible to say PSP being 222Mhz and GPX2 being 400Mhz+Overclocking.

That without comparing the Mips with ARM one.

LOL. The best thing is you used the word bias.
 
Man, people find things FAST ... :)

The page is really still in development. This is just a placeholder - direct comparisons are just one aspect this site will have when all is said and done. The most OBVIOUS thing we wanted to show is that the GP2x is a good alternative for people buying a PSP for NON-COMMERCIAL use (which sadly is everyone I know).

Its also important to realize this comparison is OUT OF THE BOX capabilities. Sure, there are emulators for the PSP, but can you run them out of the box? The CPUs are clocked at 222 OUT OF THE BOX.

I've got some sharp engineer people looking at CPUs (you guys have also brought up EXCELLENT points - I'm sure I'll be contacting many of you offline) to ensure that both systems are PROPERLY represented.

So, the CPU area is DEFINITELY weak right now. We'll make it fair.

I'm at work right now, but at home, I'll clean up a lot of stuff brought up here (for example, the commercial game reference).

I'm really hoping to make GP2x the first stop for people interested in WHAT it is, HOW it works, and what BENEFITS you can gain. Also, as a portal to EXCELLENT resources such as this forum, developer pages, etc. We've even kicked around trying to UNIFY developers in some way - as I think this is the MOST important part of the community. I want to represent the platform while supporting all you guys that have been around since the early adopter GP32 days. Last thing I want to do is recreate the wheel and act as any sort of 'competition' - those who know me know that I'm just interested in promoting advocacy directed specifically at this handheld.

I really appreciate the nice words (everyone here seems really cool - even those that may disagree are really cool about it) and I will DEFINITELY be tapping the community as I move forward with this.

Thanks guys!
 
DaveC posted on Oct 20 2005 at 08:05 PM said:
skeezix posted on Oct 20 2005 at 03:47 PM said:
Epicenter -
Actually, the PSP emus tend to be pretty good -- from what little I've fiddled with them, Genesis and TG16 are solid, and certainly my CaSTaway port is pretty impressive. The GPU does 2d very well - big bank of video RAM full of sprites performs well, with all the GPU effects (alpha, stretch etc).


jeff

Do you think that SNES will always be better on the PSP? How about the transparencies, isn't the PSP GPU better suited for those at a faster speed?

You might try to download the official datasheet in this file and search for keywords like an "alpha blending" and a "video mixing". Wonder what you will find? B)
 
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Shane R. Monroe posted on Oct 20 2005 at 06:26 PM said:
Its also important to realize this comparison is OUT OF THE BOX capabilities. Sure, there are emulators for the PSP, but can you run them out of the box? The CPUs are clocked at 222 OUT OF THE BOX.

...Thanks guys!


This is wrong though. Anyone with an internet connection and a blank memory stick can run emulators on the PSP. They can also run them at 333 MHz by simply changing a menu item. There is no hardware mod required. So I would consider these capabilities to be "out of the box"

Right now SNES, PC-Engine NES, GB, GBC, Genesis, Atari-ST, Neo Geo, are all superior on the PSP right now to the GP32. The GP2X doesn't even have most of these yet and the ones that it does are choppy and early versions. They will improve but to what level? Will they ever match the PSP in speed? No one knows for sure yet.

Right now the PSP IS the best emulation handheld because of its fast CPU. It has other issues such as a dodgy d-pad, slow LCD, and image stretching that looks ugly (to me). So it is not perfect but nothing is yet.
 
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still, even with 333mhz, the psp isn't clearly superior if at all, and no one can say now, but from what i've read up, it's supposed to not be as good as the 2 arm9's for what we want.

but yeah, it's not hard getting emulators to run on the psp at all, and they are hardly "primitive".
 
DaveC posted on Oct 20 2005 at 06:28 PM said:
Right now the PSP IS the best emulation handheld because of its fast CPU. It has other issues such as a dodgy d-pad, slow LCD, and image stretching that looks ugly (to me). So it is not perfect but nothing is yet.

Sure, but you neglect the fact that the ARM architecture and SDL APIs are long-lasting technologies that have been around for quite some time, and aren't going anywhere. You can easily take code that runs great on similar devices, or anything written in SDL, and bring it over to the GP2x without difficulty-- ARM ASM code for example which is heavily optimized to run very fast on PocketPCs or the DS could be ported over without difficulty and have a new interface wrapped around it, and bam, fast new emulator. This is what's happening, for example, with Reesy's 'DrMD' MegaDrive/Genesis emulator and its VERY fast and efficient Cyclone 68000 emulation core operating as pure ASM. Now, how many emulators did you see for the original Playstation? For the PS2? Pretty much nil-- and these are the systems to share its Rxxxx architecture. So, what's there to port to it? Generic unoptimized non-ASM emulators from other architectures which cannot run as fast. New software must be written from the ground up to accomodate its design, now.

As for SDL. It's a language that's been around for many many years and supports an enormous amount of crossplatform games and emulators and other multimedia software, and because of his heavy flexibility and portability, any application written in SDL that can be handled by the hardware can be compiled for ARM9 and run on the GP2x with the SDL Libraries in a porting process that might even be described as 'drag and drop' in difficulty.

When GP2x development is in full swing, the PSP will be given a run for its money, and having a higher-clockrate CPU isn't going to stop that. Even if the GP2x used anemic hardware, its severe open-ended-ness, lack of need for arcane firmware updates that break more than they fix through consistent attempts by the product's manufacturer to stop you getting your money's worth from it (quite a substantial investment of money too), and the greater difficulties in porting existing well established emulation cores as I mentioned before will ultimately sentence it to a lower rung of the homebrew/emulation ladder compared to any open-ended system, such as the GP2x.
 
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I look forward to seeing some updates to the information in the comparison. At the moment I am afraid it is unbalanced.

I have a PSP and I love playing emulators and home brew games on it. Installing the emulators are simple enough and they are great quality, especially if you consider the short period of time the PSP has been out. Yoyofr is king. And as far as firmware updates and cracks, this is made out to sound like a major issue and I don't think it is. Currently most stores in the US still have units with firmware 2.0 in stock and all you need to do is downgrade to 1.5 and viola, a whole world of unsigned code is availble.

My point of view is that if you want a quality handheld that can play the latest 3D commercial games, play back MP3s and watch awesome h246 codec movies...AND play unsigned code with minimal effort, then the PSP is one kick ass handheld.

EDIT: to play back H264 movies from memory card you need to upgrade your firmware, effectly ending your ability to run unsigned code.....but the UMD movies are still H264 for what it's worth :p :p

I already have a GP2X on order from GBAX and I know the scene will be killer. I can't wait for my new unit to ship. As long as the website has accurate information then I think it will be a really cool place to look up specs for reference.
 
you can't playback your own h.264 videos, that's umd only. this is why i hated psp for video.
psp ain't bad, but the commercial games situation put me off..
 
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