Refugee Situation in Europe


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ible

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To question it as a cultural problem, where was there ever a non-problematic Judeo-Christian presence? And most importantly, what is or has happened to be the most problematic, more or less strict?



I don't mean to take this out of context, but certainly you wouldn't blame the Jews for the Holocaust or other persecutions (against either Jews or Christians).  The problems can start from any party, so I'd hate to shift the blame just to the religious parties.  You can be a radical atheist/christian/jew/muslim/communist/etc.  

Where was Judeo-christianity ever integrated? Where was it ever reformed peacefully. Are there not enough examples of implementation? Or are they now outdated? What is the timeframe where to those it has been extremely lethal, you can safely and convincingly say that it is now in the past?



If everyone had the same beliefs, then great, there wouldn't be conflict because of those beliefs.  (though there would certainly be conflict about other things, resolved peacefully and with respect or not...)  But we should definitely consider how each belief system treats non-believers and apostates, because those ethics are important for humans to function well as a multicultural society (if that is indeed what we want to see come to pass -- do atheists want all non-atheists to become atheists?).  Sometimes the practice of some religious group is different than the theory (i.e. the books and teachings it holds sacred), too.  By what standard should we judge?


But like you mentioned (I think you said something along these lines), it's hard to make judgments on these things as if we're outside of the system, since we're a part of the whole, too.  Our judgments of other belief systems change the way we treat "non-believers" of our standard/beliefs.  Do we pity them?  Do we belittle or revile them?  Do we have compassion for them?


</Random thoughts>
 

klapse

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The local Aldi to me also closed due to theft from immigrants. (I say immigrants and not refugees because many of them do not qualify for legal refugee status in Germany.)  No news media I saw reported this.


In addition, a refugee from Afghanistan just murdered someone in a town not far from here (by running over him with a car three times). None of the news media i saw reported that he was a refugee.


In addition the German government reported that less than 10% of the immigrants from outside the EU are qualified for any job or vocational training (very few speak German). So these people are going to be a significant, perhaps crushing burden on the German welfare system for years to come.


Now don't misunderstand me, I'm an immigrant myself - but I speak the language here and am not a burden on the welfare system.  Accepting an unlimited amount of people, the majority of whom don't have the qualifications to find work, is a recipe for financial and social disaster - and the bleeding heart social justice warriors are making the problem worse by refusing to consider reforms to our immigration laws which could reduce the flood to a manageable number.


Peace
 

rygD

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Totally off-topic:  The Aldi near me closed and relocated a few miles up the road to a more wealthy neighborhood.  I noticed the cops don't have a constant presence there anymore like they did when they were around the corner from me.  Yep, Aldi is trying to get away from me.
 

comradekingu

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I don't mean to take this out of context, but certainly you wouldn't blame the Jews for the Holocaust or other persecutions (against either Jews or Christians).  The problems can start from any party, so I'd hate to shift the blame just to the religious parties.  You can be a radical atheist/christian/jew/muslim/communist/etc.  


If everyone had the same beliefs, then great, there wouldn't be conflict because of those beliefs.  (though there would certainly be conflict about other things, resolved peacefully and with respect or not...)  But we should definitely consider how each belief system treats non-believers and apostates, because those ethics are important for humans to function well as a multicultural society (if that is indeed what we want to see come to pass -- do atheists want all non-atheists to become atheists?).  Sometimes the practice of some religious group is different than the theory (i.e. the books and teachings it holds sacred), too.  By what standard should we judge?


But like you mentioned (I think you said something along these lines), it's hard to make judgments on these things as if we're outside of the system, since we're a part of the whole, too.  Our judgments of other belief systems change the way we treat "non-believers" of our standard/beliefs.  Do we pity them?  Do we belittle or revile them?  Do we have compassion for them?


</Random thoughts>

No, but I would like to point out that its one judeo-christian party targeting another, and a fair few communists.


Being religious is not a reason to behave in this manner, it is specifically the Judeo-Christian religions that behave in this manner. I hold them accountable to their own word.


Holding different beliefs is also not the problem. Holding different beliefs to any part of Judeo-Christianity is, that blame is with those at fault. And thats where we are back to Judeo-Christianity.


Sometimes the practice of these groups is _exactly_ what their theory instigates. Its very easy to point out the flaw, and its easy to assign blame where it belongs.


I can't say I feel much for these people in one way or the other, because I don't care. If they held the same regard for me, we would be fine.


At-least I don't have to hear as much of the "We are the religion of peace" anymore.
 

sebt3

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In general you are right since no matter the religion, people who think that killing innocents is good are always already screwed up, but a cultural basis like this isn't helping at all, go check the Quran for:



This post is a shame !


"Thanks" for the cut&paste from rascist anti-Semite blog. Very very usefull.


Open a bible, you'll find as much "to the war" quote as in the Quran. Just one to open your eyes : Matthew 12:30. But there's more, way more.


The question is not what's in the book, it's what people do with it. and trust me there's far more muslim that dont listen to the quote you've listed but to any of these : http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/islamic-forbids-terrorism.html


I would be ashamed to have ever written such bullshit as you sprayed here
 

pmprog

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The question is not what's in the book, it's what people do with it. and trust me there's far more muslim that dont listen to the quote you've listed but to any of these : http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/islamic-forbids-terrorism.html

Not sure I agree with you here - about the "it's not what's in the book". Sure, there are muslims that don't listen to that bit, just as their are christians that don't listen to the old testament and other such atrocities. That does not negate their contents are present, nor their effects to the lunatics that believe the books as literal truth. Personally, I hold both books in the same contempt, and think the world would be a better place without them.


I'm against organised religion as a principal, but I'm happy to let people be (unless they come knocking at my door, bloody Jehovah's Witlesses, I'm looking at you), but still, the books are present, and they contain nonsense of a bygone era.


This s**t scares me...
 

Klumpen

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This post is a shame !


"Thanks" for the cut&paste from rascist anti-Semite blog. Very very usefull.


Open a bible, you'll find as much "to the war" quote as in the Quran. Just one to open your eyes : Matthew 12:30. But there's more, way more.


The question is not what's in the book, it's what people do with it. and trust me there's far more muslim that dont listen to the quote you've listed but to any of these : http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/islamic-forbids-terrorism.html


I would be ashamed to have ever written such bullshit as you sprayed here



Nice accusation. I'd be ashamed if I were to accuse someone of this without knowing much about him.


You can't imagine how many religious and philosophical texts I've read in different translations and I have no problem finding such quotes myself, thank you. Have you actually checked them all btw?


At least the quote you posted isn't an order to massacre someone without mercy or imprison and hit disobedient women although it's still nothing shiny, but how exactly does one shit get better if you find other shit elsewhere?


The deflection with Christianity is something everybody seems to be trained in, problem is: I would do and have done the same with Christianity since I'm opposed to all abrahamitic religions.


What do you expect from desert religions where it's mostly about who gets the oasis for his own people?


It's a fact, that Islam is perfect for spreading hatred, intolerance, mysoginy and a really dangerous superiority complex and therefore is a perfect handbook for screwed up people to justify these things.


I wish there'd at least be a division of religion and state in there, but sadly it's quite the opposite.


You should be happy, that most muslims don't take their religion too seriously or we'd be really screwed. Most objective people with muslim heritage that I know share my opinion. I'm not allowed to call them "ex-muslims", since apostasy is forbidden and will be punished (in my town usually by family members, often by death; in Sharia states officials take care of this), remember.


Nothing will change if people deny the facts over and over again and wave every based criticism away with slur and slander and the fact is, that this stuff badly needs reformation instead of support.


I'm speaking of support that is leading to Quran schools on European soil where the children/teens have to watch videos where stonings of women that didn't really do anything wrong are shown and learn, that this is great justice.


This actually happens, I've heard it first hand from one of those girls that have to watch and stay silent right here in Germany.
 
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Mr_Loon

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...


In addition, a refugee from Afghanistan just murdered someone in a town not far from here (by running over him with a car three times). None of the news media i saw reported that he was a refugee.


...


Now don't misunderstand me, I'm an immigrant myself

If you committed a crime would you expect the fact that you are an immigrant to be brought up in reports of that crime?
______________



The refugee situation in Europe is an enormous clusterfuck on many levels. IMHO Europe should look to the UK for a lead on dealing with the crisis in Syria, i.e. massive funding for refugee camps in neighbouring safe countries and only accepting refugees from camps in neighbouring safe countries.

There is no point in having asylum laws that state you must claim refugee status in the first safe country that you reach and then just ignoring this and inviting all comers as per Germany & Sweden.
 

_jr_

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That is not what happened. What happened is that (simplified) the countries of first entry were (due to various reasons) overwhelmed and no longer capable of providing adequate shelter and due process to refugees. Then German courts (individually) disallowed transfers from applicants into these countries (because basic shelter and due process are basic human rights) and Germany had to process these refugees herself. Then Germany decided that it is less work (especially for Syrians) to - instead of starting the (non trivial) process of sending them back and ultimatly have to process the application herself - make use of her 'Selbsteintrittsrecht' that allows her to at her option to process asylum seekers herself. Whether it was a good idea to publicize that is debatable, but the end result is effectively the same. That Germany is now starting to again press more 'Dublin' cases, doesn't change much either (since the state in the relevant countries hasn't changed significantly).It is all well within to the law and necessary to satisfy the law (because no adequate measures were implemented when the situation began to grow out of control in the last years).
 

Timstertoo

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Not sure I agree with you here - about the "it's not what's in the book". Sure, there are muslims that don't listen to that bit, just as their are christians that don't listen to the old testament and other such atrocities. That does not negate their contents are present, nor their effects to the lunatics that believe the books as literal truth. Personally, I hold both books in the same contempt, and think the world would be a better place without them.


I'm against organised religion as a principal, but I'm happy to let people be (unless they come knocking at my door, bloody Jehovah's Witlesses, I'm looking at you), but still, the books are present, and they contain nonsense of a bygone era.


This s**t scares me...

That woman should not be allowed anywhere near children. Absolutely disgusting. 
 

Klumpen

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^ Someone should tell her, that gluttony is a capital sin but wizardry is not and she'll go to hell. ;)


Wasn't pre-zombie Jesus a wizard himself? :p


-------------------------------------------------------------


Ken Jebsen (German language) about Paris; elites; arms manufacturers; oil; institutionalized terror; police states;
hatred, fear and religion as tools for creating useful idiots:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWPnsh1kd7M
 
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Night

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  • You can't imagine how many religious and philosophical texts I've read in different translations and I have no problem finding such quotes myself, thank you. Have you actually checked them all btw?
  • Nothing will change if people deny the facts over and over again and wave every based criticism away with slur and slander and the fact is, that this stuff badly needs reformation instead of support.
  • What do you expect from desert religions where it's mostly about who gets the oasis for his own people?

An infidel little bunny you may be, but if you indeed read many scriptures before you should probably know by now how to differentiate between a religion and a faith, that is.. before you go on insulting both by proxy.

One is merely an institutionalized doctrine while the other is what one chooses to do with it, for ages you could find example of both proper use and abuse by many - that however is not enough to disqualify a religion as a whole.
Every faith has its branches and depending on what kind of religious teaching one chooses to embrace, that will be what shapes their faith. Same as when a person chooses wether to believe the good doctor or the bad doctor, it will be up to the patient to decide on how to act according to diagnosis.
 

thatgui

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The rapeof europe
Not that there isn't truth in this video, but the tone is highly aggressive and its borderline demagogic (like showing footage from street violence that is clearly not recorded in Europe,and was just choosen to show africans indulging in violence) Any chance of removal ?
 

Klumpen

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An infidel little bunny you may be, but if you indeed read many scriptures before you should probably know by now how to differentiate between a religion and a faith, that is.. before you go on insulting both by proxy.

Where and how did I insult anybody? By quoting the "holy scripture"?

I aggree, that the video above is (although right on some points) too demagogic and too aggressive, but censorship isn't justified and as we could see quite well in the last weeks not doing any good in general in most cases.

Here is something from the other side.
It was an Imam who told in September how to judge and handle the refugee situation in Germany.
 
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Holliefant

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I am a dutch Person living in Germany, and believe me that is not always a nice thing... and I don´t like any religion. I can see that some things religions brought us are true and good, it is just that looking at the bigger picture it brought us mainly hatred and murder. Not only the abrahamic, all others too. One might think that Buddhism for example is a true peaceful religion... well it might but in the name of that religion has been spread hatred as well. Also I want to say very explicit that I detest all right and left winged politic ideas, because either way they are bad!

Said that, I want to say that even being a "Ausländer" here I don´t like the idea of so many people coming here and not wanting to really integrate. I am what they call a "Gutmensch" here, since I do support the thought of helping those poor people and giving them a refuge, but I always must insist on integrating them in our society! If a person don´t want to do that, he or she should leave immediately. There is no room here for people not respecting women, freedom of speech or freedom of religion. That principle applies to all people, although I realize that it will be quite hard to get all the German people out, that also don´t want to abide to this way of living....
 

Night

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Where and how did I insult anybody? By quoting the "holy scripture"?
I was more refering to the following statements of yours:
What do you expect from desert religions where it's mostly about who gets the oasis for his own people?
Wasn't pre-zombie Jesus a wizard himself? :p

Now by all means, i'm not implying you should be more PC (or some other nonscene) about what you say, i just don't see how posting statements of the likes above make an educated point. To me it sounds a lot more as if you're trying to bash a relgion based on lackluster (and possibly misunderstood) understanding of its scripture, which in turn can be offensive to someone's geniuine and peaceful faith (wether intentionally or not).
 

Mr_Loon

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I always must insist on integrating them in our society! If a person don´t want to do that, he or she should leave immediately. There is no room here for people not respecting women, freedom of speech or freedom of religion.
I know where you're coming from and broadly agree with your sentiment but to me it's a little deeper than forced integration. In the UK there are some communities that are not well integrated with the 'native' populace, they have some questionable views towards women, are highly conservative in religious terms & have a lot of very unusual customs. I'm talking about Hasidic Jews. Would it have been correct to expel the initial Jewish immigrants simply because they did not integrate?

To me the key issue is the question of personal behaviour rather than integration. A minor point, but an important one for a truly free society IMHO.
 

Klumpen

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Now by all means, i'm not implying you should be more PC (or some other nonscene) about what you say, i just don't see how posting statements of the likes above make an educated point. To me it sounds a lot more as if you're trying to bash a relgion based on lackluster (and possibly misunderstood) understanding of its scripture, which in turn can be offensive to someone's geniuine and peaceful faith (wether intentionally or not).

Seriously, if you can't mock something, it isn't worth existing. Atheists get mocked and looked down upon all the time and sometimes bombed by people that take fascist religions literally and have no humour.
It's the point that the national socialist party and orthodox christians/muslims have in common: No humour, no tolerance for other people's humour, lack of the ability to laugh at oneself.

You know what groups without humour tend to do? Here are the most recent examples.

Don't support self-censorshp in favour of intolerant religions.
I guess this hypocritical "We are all Charlie" has long been forgotten again already just like all the times before this incident.
I'm not even going there and you already think I'm going too far? I could make dark jokes about Muhammad fucking his 9 year old bride, in a free world I have the right to do that but I don't.

And no, I certainly didn't misunderstood the scripture, it's actually pretty hard to misunderstand this particular scripture since it is featuring lots of quite clear orders that mostly lack any creative metaphors.
Go check yourself.
Since it seems to be a hot topic these days all of a sudden only because (ermygawd) precious European women are affected instead of the seemingly unimportant women in the middle east, here's what it says about the role of women:

Sura : Aya
2:223 - 2:228 - 2:282 - 4:3 - 4:11 - 4:24 - 5:6 - 24:31 - 33:50 - 53:27

If you don't have one, you can copy the numbers into the search mask here and get the original text as well as a mild but still understandable translation.
http://quran.com/

That said and going back to the few real refugees that are not just immigrants following their leader on their quest:
I'm happy about every apostate and especcially oppressed woman and child being somehow able to come here, unfortunately it's 70% young men with questionable intentions and I slowly get the feeling, that this is exactly the plan. I guess the USA are happy about the destabilisation of Europe and their part in it. Probably not a coincidence since Merkel is known for being a puppet of the US government.
Which people do you think are the most endangered in the area at the moment? Apostates, followers of any other belief, women and children. Why do you think those seldomly get here and we get exactly the opposite?
 
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