SystemD Debates

Discussion in 'Offtopic Discussions' started by Penguin-Guru, Oct 9, 2016.

  1. Penguin-Guru

    Penguin-Guru Still Fresh

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    The debates we all know so well, now hopefully presented in a single, logistically appropriate place.

    I am opening this thread because the Devuan thread was falling into chaos. I hope people will use it for all future SysD debate and keep the rest of the site clean. My first, and possibly only, post here will be a copy of my most recent post in the Devuan thread to get people started. If nobody actually has anything to say on this topic, that's fine with me. It's probably only useful if people are really interested.

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    I believe these debates may be socially useful so please consider some general requests for the sake of utility and civility:


    1: Be kind to one another. We do not all need to think the same way, this debate is only useful for honestly educational purposes.

    2: Do not become unduly emotional. It is not useful because there is no mutual exclusivity; both sides of this debate have strong communities to ensure their continuity.

    3: Use general common sense to present yourself clearly and do your own research before posting arguments or questions.

    4: Reserve liking posts for posts that are objectively useful. There is no value to simply liking all posts that you personally agree with.

    5: Provide citations when appropriate or on request. My initial comment will exemplify my preferred style of citation but really anything is fine.

    6: Edit comments to strike-through (cross-out) invalidated comments for the clarity of future readers. I am not sure how to do this in the Rich Text Editor but this BBcode implementation uses the letter 's' in brackets and a '/s' in brackets to close the tag, like HTML.

    7: Take the time to read, or at least gloss-over, this web page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies. It may be useful to reference it when appropriate to maintain order but not, for example, ad hominem.


    These requests are based on my observations of previous hot-topic threads and, although I have no power or desire to enforce them, I believe they will make the discussion much more enjoyable and useful for everyone.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 9, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 9, 2016 ---
     
  2. Shlee

    Shlee Still Fresh

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    no.
     
    FBnil, xrandr, rygD and 3 others like this.
  3. Penguin-Guru

    Penguin-Guru Still Fresh

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    Bump's a yes, friend. You know you want to. ;)
     
  4. Linux-SWAT

    Linux-SWAT Hardcore Member

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  5. Magic Sam

    Magic Sam Forever Homebrew

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    Hi all :)

    https://github.com/davidjoffe/dave_gnukem/
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  6. Swordfish II

    Swordfish II Very Active Member

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    Lol Koalaty bump
     
  7. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

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    Just wait for system-rygD!
     
  8. Linux-SWAT

    Linux-SWAT Hardcore Member

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  9. Caine

    Caine Hardcore Member

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  10. Linux-SWAT

    Linux-SWAT Hardcore Member

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    With "The importance of Devuan" as a title ?
    This isn't even a question...
     
  11. kaprikawn

    kaprikawn Very Active Member

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    ible likes this.
  12. Caine

    Caine Hardcore Member

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    Huh? ... Oh, you actually read the article :p

    I was just responding to the slashdot title.
     
  13. ible

    ible professional vim user

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    there are also many companies which use systemD on linux, with reliability as one of their primary top concerns...
     
  14. FBnil

    FBnil Ready to Champion the Pyra to the World...

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  15. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

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    Indeed, that shows the benefit of clear documentation. I've learned much more about how my computer boots by reading the sysctl man page than I ever learned about how sysV did it.
     
  16. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

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    A recent talk made at an austrialian linux conf piqued my interest. To kick off, it's worth skimming this tale of self-improvement first, and indeed it links that in the opening slides.

    It doesn't require much technical understanding to follow it, although an understanding of this debate is needed, so when he refers to specific programs and systems you can skip them.

     
    CommanderB, Wally and ClockworkCoder like this.
  17. klapse

    klapse Central Scrutinizer

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    He doesn't describe a tragedy; he performs one with his speech.
     
  18. FBnil

    FBnil Ready to Champion the Pyra to the World...

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    Systemd Now Has More Than 1.2 Million Lines of Code
    https://alterslash.org/day/20190525#article-14030904

    For something that was supposed to replace a few shell scripts... it's getting big. Not unlike cancer...
    --- Double Post Merged, May 26, 2019, Original Post Date: May 26, 2019 ---
    Let's put that into a correct perspective. The push for systemd came from RedHat. RedHat was bought by IBM recently... but they are not re-branding it (the fear of it becoming BlueHat), which is a good thing. (just look at the first page of the RedHat website)

    Back to Systemd. Look at the picture and see how much reach it has at the moment.
     
  19. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

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    I like how someone in the comments there says "Its internal graph of units is hard to get at". Have they tried running 'systemd-analyse plot > boot.svg'?

    I think this needs someone to say what systemd has replaced, to justify what those extra lines are doing. My understanding is that these days it does more than it used to, but I'm not that well informed about what's actually changed.

    But yeah, as your double post says, that won't satisfy anyone whose concern is the systemd is doing too much. All I can say is that the old init scripts stuck me as extremely badly documented, and at least now I have to documentation at my fingertips to see how my system's actually booting, if i care to.

    Edit2: RedHat Enterprise Linux didn't actually enable this by default until Mid 2014. ArchLinux took it by default in October 2012, and was second to make it default after RedHat's Fedora distibution started using it in late 2011. It's interesting that the more forward looking distros don't tend to have so many supporters for the more traditional boot scripts, or so many alternative boot systems, although this feature creep should probably worry archlinux people whose one traditional benefits was that it installed a very simple system to begin with and gave you the tools to install anything else you cared to, rather than starting with lots installed and requiring you to risk breaking things when you stripped them back.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  20. FBnil

    FBnil Ready to Champion the Pyra to the World...

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    Code:
    root@home:~# systemd-analyze
    Startup finished in 4min 53.558s (kernel) + 41.918s (userspace) = 5min 35.476s
    
    o_O wow... And here I thought I had a decently fast Workstation. Suggested width for the svg is 33628 pixels.
    Ah.. I see: You need to type in your luks password real fast, because every second is counted. edit: maybe, it's the suspend from Disk that takes that long.

    Well, Ubuntu has it's upstart.

    other init thingies:
    http://upstart.ubuntu.com/
    http://smarden.org/runit/
    http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/openrc
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019

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