What option for a spacebar/button would you like?

What option for a spacebar/button would you like?

  • Continuity: Same as Pandora (bottom row, second from right, two wide)

    Votes: 26 48.1%
  • Symmetry: Bottom row, centered, two-wide spacebar

    Votes: 16 29.6%
  • Flexibility: Single-wide spacebutton (it can be mapped wherever!)

    Votes: 12 22.2%

  • Total voters
    54

comradekingu

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Since the best use-case isnt desktop typing, it hasnt been given priority. But it should absolutely be possible, for the sake of convenience.

Desktop typing with two hands is a further subset of that, but by all means, where there is possibility there is potential.
I know quite some people who prefer this kind of typing. -----

What do you think? Should we invite people to this poll, even though they are not the primary target group of this project (but very interested in it, anyway)?  Please let's not discuss this question here in this thread. It's not intended for that. I'd rather ask those who have an opinion on that, to write it to me as a private message. ED? Tenka? ible (thread starter)?
I think we should show the layouts to casual users. Thats where the sweetspot is in terms of sales. With the pyra being more generic, it can appeal to a more general audience. That demographic is orders of magnitude bigger than any of us combined.

Something anyone can use has a much bigger audience than something only hackers and otakus can use. The difference is less important for you and me, but it means everything for a great majority of potential customers. Its not even a loss for the power-users. Win-win.

The more devices sold, the more obscure layouts can be produced.

I think trying to compete with a fullsize keyboard for 10-finger typing is something left for where it doesnt hamper 2-finger typing on what is primarily a 2thumb keyboard.

There are many people who like to drive offroad, and many people probably do it in station-wagons as opposed to offroad vehicles. Adding some clearance underneath the station wagon is ok, mounting a winch kills the station wagon.

The problem with voting here is that many are not fully aware of how the space fits in, in itself, and also as it means quite a lot for the keyboard as a whole, and thats the important bit.
 
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bzar

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Pyra is pretty much not aimed at general audience (otherwise it'd most likely have android installed by default). Benchmark with the niche that's actually probable to use it. I'd wager that group contains at least (previous) pandora owners.
 

ZXDunny

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43 votes so far: 22 for Pandora-style bottom-right double-width, 9 for centered double-width, 12 for single-width.

So yes, technically there is a majority in favor of sticking to the Pandora-style bottom-right double-width space bar. But it's a small majority, and the sample size is also rather small.
You can't start to claim that the poll is invalid now just because your side is losing - no matter what the sample size. Even when only a small portion of the population votes in a general election, you don't get the losing party shouting about how it's not fair and that not enough of the right people voted!

Fact is, all those who are actually interested in what the Space[bar|button] should look like and where is should be placed have already voted and the majority of the people who worry about this sort of thing have expressed a preference for the same size and position as the Pandora.

Whining about it now isn't going to change the fact that you've lost.

D.
 

ible

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51% is simply not an overwhelming majority, which I think is what _wb_ was commenting on.  Roughly speaking, out of four people:  two want it the old way, one wants flexibility, and the other wants symmetry.  If you and three friends were trying to decide on something with that breakdown, you might be more considerate towards the minority.

We're just curious why people vote for what they do.  I'm also wondering if they've considered the current proposed keyboard layouts before voting.  In hindsight, I should have added a poll question or two about this.
 

hmc

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Having the space bar centered has the big advantage that people who are used to type on standard keyboards will find it easily with their fingers, while typing fast. The keybaord is not so „uncommon“. Every „uncomonness“ is a reason, especially for people who want to work rather than play (no matter if they are over 80 or only 40), not to buy the device.

Ans, as rygD said, a centered spacebar is easier to reach with either hand. When you type with 8 or 10 fingers on your standard keyboard, you probably press the spacebar sometimes with the left thumb and sometimes with the right one, depending on which one is nearer at the moment. 

I also vote for having a wider spaceBAR, not only a single-size space button, so the user has some guidance under his fingers. I know it is for the cost of at least one other key, but I think it’s worth that victim. Keyboards are designed to give guidance for fast-typing users. 

Additionally, people with shorter thumbs will have it easier to reach the spacebar, if it’s wider.

_wb_, a larger centered spacebar is not only good for new users (your last item in the argument list), but for all users who type a lot on standard keyboards. If you frequently switch between different keyboards, and those keyboards differ significantly, it will always be a harder switch than if the keyboards are more similar.

There were so many revolutionary efforts to develop different keyboards and keyboard layouts (Dvorak, Neo, 3D keyboards etc. etc.) But they all failed for the masses. Why? Because humans are creatures of habit. 

I’d like the Pyra to be one component of my computer landscape. Id like to play games on it, too. (Actually, I use my Pandora more for gaming now than for anything else, but that’s because of the keyboard). But I’d also like to be able to take my SD card out of the Macbook, put it into the Pyra and continue my work on the road. That includes a lot of fast typing (otherwise I could use a tablet or smartphone for that - the BIG advantage of Pandora / Pyra is - besides its open OS, its  hardware keyboard).

Regarding the audience / target group:

Sure, the Pyra is targeted at a niche. However, maybe it makes sense to also attract people from outside that niche. With the growing number of all-equal and kind-of-dumb mass products that only feature a touchscreen in a monolithic case, people will adapt their habits more and more to that kind of device. My opinion is, that computers should try to fit the way of working with them. Not vice versa.

We can, with Pandora and Pyra, build an opposition to that, maybe make some people consider their choice, make make our niche a bit bigger. Certainly we won't be able to make the world of mobile computing devices much better. But at least we can save some people drowning in the swamp of Samsung, Apple & co. I am a power Apple user myself, privately and for my job. I know how deep that swamp is and how hard it is to avoid drowning. ;-)
 

_jr_

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The Pyra won't be any more touch typing friendly than the Pandora. The size and the uncertain hinge properties all but rule out ergonomic touch typing. It's a handheld after all. That doesn't prevent one from using it in 'laptop mode', but that will definitely be the exception. While innovative thumb typing layouts like Grench's (whether one personally likes them or not) are a valid reason for a centered space bar, touch typing isn't.
 

fusion_power

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Already 3 pages about a single space bar?  :rolleyes:

Imagine, the community would discuss and vote about every aspect of the Pyra, the device would not be done in hundred years!   :lol:   Seriously, democracy seems not to really work when it comes to make an technical product. 

And just to add my personal opinion: a space bar should be centered so you can reach it comfortably with both hands - or both thumbs in the case of an Handheld.
 
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Bosbeetle

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Already 3 pages about a single space bar?  :rolleyes:

Imagine, the community would discuss and vote about every aspect of the Pyra, the device woulöd not be dine in hundred years!  :lol:   Seriously, democracy seems not to really work when it comes to make an technical product. 

And just to add my personal opinion: a space bar should be centered so you can reach it comfortably with both hands - or both thumbs in the case of an Handheld.
i cannot agree more, not only for technology but in a lot of areas democracy gives wrong solutions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum 
 

Bosbeetle

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i cannot agree more, not only for technology but in a lot of areas democracy gives wrong solutions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum 
Wouldn't this be an argument against continuing with the Pandora's keyboard layout?
I've statet before that I thought there were a bit many threads about this issue, which people here didn't take lightly. So I wont make a statement like that again and leave everybody to enjoy his or her pet peevee's. 
 
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Grench

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The Pyra won't be any more touch typing friendly than the Pandora. The size and the uncertain hinge properties all but rule out ergonomic touch typing. It's a handheld after all. That doesn't prevent one from using it in 'laptop mode', but that will definitely be the exception. While innovative thumb typing layouts like Grench's (whether one personally likes them or not) are a valid reason for a centered space bar, touch typing isn't.
I think several of the arguments are a bit 'out there'.  Concerns about mapping to Dvorak for example.  Dvorak made layouts for a full sized touch keyboard in two, left only and right only handed versions.  He never did one designed for 'two thumbs only'.  Two handed touch typing on a 125mm thumb keyboard should only be considered by individuals with child-like hands - and even then it will be cramped.

As for 'reachability' of a bottom center mounted space bar, it is actually easier to reach than the corner buttons.  It is in the natural arc of either thumb.  RTYU are actually the only 'stretch to reach' buttons.  We could optimize the letter layout based on reach and alternating left/right thumb presses much like Dvorak did, but then we'd have something that is unrecognizable to anyone.

Yes, using a center mounted double width space bar means moving the numbers from the top row into a number pad.  It's easily accessible using the left Fn+numberkey, assuming the person has two thumbs.  Someone with only one thumb might have issues with my design, but they would need to adapt to any layout.
 

mrpalmtop

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I think several of the arguments are a bit 'out there'.  Concerns about mapping to Dvorak for example.  Dvorak made layouts for a full sized touch keyboard in two, left only and right only handed versions.  He never did one designed for 'two thumbs only'.  Two handed touch typing on a 125mm thumb keyboard should only be considered by individuals with child-like hands - and even then it will be cramped.
I'm sorry but that's just plain wrong. I've been using handheld keyboards for over a decade now and it's very possible to type with two hands. You just don't type with all your fingers. We should discourage thumb typing because that encourages RSI.
 

TrashyMG

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We should discourage thumb typing because that encourages RSI.
No more so than any repetitive activity like regular typing or using a mouse. The Pandora and Pyra are devices designed to be held, so it's implied that thumb typing is the primary method of input.
 

comradekingu

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The pyra can never be a 103-key board. Making sure you strain as little as possible when doing two-thumb typing, on a two thumb keyboard is key. More effective is less wasted movement. How streneous it is is down to testing and some knowledge.

Having to look up and down on the screen is the real issue. Im able to touch-type on the pandora keyboard, but i can never get over how in-effective it is. That gets old on first try.

The Pyra won't be any more touch typing friendly than the Pandora. The size and the uncertain hinge properties all but rule out ergonomic touch typing. It's a handheld after all. That doesn't prevent one from using it in 'laptop mode', but that will definitely be the exception. While innovative thumb typing layouts like Grench's (whether one personally likes them or not) are a valid reason for a centered space bar, touch typing isn't.
 I think several of the arguments are a bit 'out there'.  Concerns about mapping to Dvorak for example.  Dvorak made layouts for a full sized touch keyboard in two, left only and right only handed versions.  He never did one designed for 'two thumbs only'.  Two handed touch typing on a 125mm thumb keyboard should only be considered by individuals with child-like hands - and even then it will be cramped.

As for 'reachability' of a bottom center mounted space bar, it is actually easier to reach than the corner buttons.  It is in the natural arc of either thumb.  RTYU are actually the only 'stretch to reach' buttons.  We could optimize the letter layout based on reach and alternating left/right thumb presses much like Dvorak did, but then we'd have something that is unrecognizable to anyone.

Yes, using a center mounted double width space bar means moving the numbers from the top row into a number pad.  It's easily accessible using the left Fn+numberkey, assuming the person has two thumbs.  Someone with only one thumb might have issues with my design, but they would need to adapt to any layout.
Its also a case of what people know from before. QWERTY is what it is, but id argue its even worse on two-thumb.
Bottom middle half is the sweetspot for space, on both sides. Double space has other compromises no matter where placed. Its a better to have it bottom center if its going to be double, that makes double actually do something.
 
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mrpalmtop

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We should discourage thumb typing because that encourages RSI.
No more so than any repetitive activity like regular typing or using a mouse. The Pandora and Pyra are devices designed to be held, so it's implied that thumb typing is the primary method of input.
Typing with two digits is tougher on the thumbs than typing with 3 or more digits. More repetition stress on the joints.

Bottom middle half is the sweetspot for space, on both sides. Double space has other compromises no matter where placed. Its a better to have it bottom center if its going to be double, that makes double actually do something.
I agree. I really don't think it'd be inconvenient for thumb typing either.
 
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comradekingu

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Since you cant duplicate comma in two places you end up having one left space that you can only use for space only, then another one the right side that you use with comma. Getting increased productivity out of that is un-intuitive and cumbersome. And in my experience in doing layouts, not possible to balance.

Following the logic of putting punctuation in combinations they are used in dictates everything being at one side rather than both.

Double middle space is only better than double off-center because double off center does nothing better than single off center, which, given the functional layout. Is the most effective option. Well i say nothing, but you have an easier time one time sorting out where space is.

Muscle memory says space is to the right, and if you are like me, you use only the one half of space on the pandora, which is the left side. Being more central.

Dividing the whole board into two pieces and running space comma enter shift in the middle is one possibility, but its quite new and crazy, and you need more buttons on the width to do it.
 

ZXDunny

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51% is simply not an overwhelming majority, which I think is what _wb_ was commenting on.
It is when there's 23 votes to keep the old large space key, and the best any other option can do is 12. So let's sum up - again, for the hard of thinking among us - this poll:
1. The total number of votes at this point gives us a good idea of how many people in the community are actually bothered about this.

2. Almost 50% of that subsection of the community want things the way they are now.

3. The rest are divided into two camps, neither of which make up anything like enough to claim a majority.

So there you go. Out of those that give a shit, more people (a majority, if you will) want the old keyboard's space bar than those that don't.

Really, this thread can be closed now because:

1. The community has spoken, at least those that can be bothered to did, and -

2. ED has already said that this is a non-issue and that things won't change.

Anyone else having difficulty with this?

D.
 
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Wally

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Really, this thread can be closed now because:

1. The community has spoken, at least those that can be bothered to did, and -


2. ED has already said that this is a non-issue and that things won't change.


Anyone else having difficulty with this?


D.
No difficulties here. I wish people would seriously stop creating threads about the damn keyboard. It's getting pretty spammy.

Closing thread
 

Grench

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I think several of the arguments are a bit 'out there'.  Concerns about mapping to Dvorak for example.  Dvorak made layouts for a full sized touch keyboard in two, left only and right only handed versions.  He never did one designed for 'two thumbs only'.  Two handed touch typing on a 125mm thumb keyboard should only be considered by individuals with child-like hands - and even then it will be cramped.
I'm sorry but that's just plain wrong. I've been using handheld keyboards for over a decade now and it's very possible to type with two hands. You just don't type with all your fingers. We should discourage thumb typing because that encourages RSI.
I'm guessing here, but I suspect you do not own a Pandora then?

The Pandora/Pyra are designed to be held in the hands with the index fingers on the back under the hinge area and the other fingers supporting the device from underneath.  The only digits on top are the thumbs.

If you have a vision of this sitting on a desk and touch typing on it, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed.  I measure the distance from the center of the A key to the center of the L key at 88mm.  By contrast, on my desktop keyboard it is 153mm.  It is a pocketable handheld device.  If you're going to use it on a desk for serious typing, plug in a keyboard, mouse and monitor.  The built in keyboard IS a two thumb keyboard.
 

Tenka

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Stop closing threads, you'll just make people talk about it somewhere else.  There's already stuff in this thread.
 
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