Caanoo / WIZ Improved C64 Caanoo Emulation?


Hansel75

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Hi all, any chances of seeing a better C64 emulator for the caanoo in the future? I have thoroughly used both Frodo and Vice for the caanoo, and both emulators have major issues in most games no matter what settings i have tried.

Frodo runs at a decent speed, but sound emulation is poor and stuttery.

Vice has great sound when using the Resid option, but most games run really slow or are very jerky.

I have probably pumped about 200+ games through both these emulators, and it's sad to see some old c64 faves not working properly or are unplayable in either of these emulators!

I guess most games are playable, but the majority are always flawed in some way! Compatibility is an issue on both emulators as well.

Demos are pretty sad on either emulator as well, they are very jerky and unreliable!

To put it into perspective, the C64 is a 1mhz machine, yet Psx/Amiga/Arcade emulators are running games far better then both these C64 emulators for the caanoo, something is not quite right?

I would ask for these requests in the corresponding emulator topics, but it's just a general request in regards to two c64 emulators and there state of emulation for the caanoo.

I would also like to say that this is not a complaint or demand of any kind, i'm simply pointing out some facts in the hope someone with the skills can help out. If in future a more optimized version of Frodo and Vice can be work on by someone and released, many thanks and much appreciated in advance.

Han.
 

Pickle

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Im usually the one that ports these, I have no desire/knowledge/time to put into the level of optimization that you are requesting. Given history I doubt there will be anyone else that will.

Frodo is indeed the faster of the two, since i believe it makes assumptions for the emulation, but it not as compatible or accurate as vice. It is also very old and not supported by the original author.

Vice is slower, but that is because of the high accuracy that that it attempts to provide. This project is actively supported, so you do have someone to contact, but I think that it wont really go anyway as accuracy is their main goal. In general the more accurate the emulation the more resources the host hardware has to provide.
Vice really should run most of anything you though at it, but it takes some tinkering around with some of the emulation settings. True drive emulation is a common that is best left turned off for speed reasons.

If you are a real C64 emulation nut, i highly recommend the pandora. It is fast enough to run fullspeed for the most part, plus you have the keyboard for real command typing.
 

frolik

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This was always a disappointment for me on the wiz, so I nabbed a cheap Dingoo off eBay which has a decent port of vice 2.3 and I couldn't be happier with it :)
 

Hansel75

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Hi guys, thanks for the replies.

So to play c64 games decently, i either need to buy a Dingoo or a Pandora, when i already have a Caanoo. I would of thought the Caanoo would be more then capable of handling a C64 emulator at decent speed?

Vice is more compatible then Frodo, but a lot of games are just to jerky to play no matter what settings or overclock i use.

I appreciate all the effort Pickle, i truly do, but it is sad to hear that the Caanoo may never get a better C64 emulator, especially when an inferior handheld has better emulation of the C64(according to frolik).

And is the Pandora really that much more powerful then the Caanoo when it comes to emulating a C64?(By the way i run vice on my caanoo at 800mhz).

In regards to the better C64 emulation on the Dingoo, isn't the Caanoo more powerful the the Dingoo?, so why does the Dingoo have a better C64 emulator then?

Also is the Dingoo's ver2.3 of Vice really that much better then the Caanoo's ver2.2? If so, could ver2.3 be ported to the Caanoo??

Sorry for all the questions, it just puzzles me a bit thats all.

Thanks, Han.

PS: I have no idea if possible as i'm a coding noob, but could CCS64 be an option for a port? It's very good on pc and there is an older linux version available!
 

frolik

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The differences between 2.2 and 2.3 are negligible, the point is that doing a decent build of an incredibly complicated bit of software on different hardware requires a large investment of someones time and effort.

The old "my computer is so much faster than what I want to emulate" is just such an annoying statement which we often hear on the forums.

Unfortunately the community is quite split these days having such a choice of handheld platforms, Pickle has done a great job of porting lots of software for everyone to use but I totally understand that this might not be an entirely rewarding job to do for a minority.

Anyway I'll share a bit of advice which might improve your mileage with the existing Caanoo port (which I've not used) - If you can't get a game to work, you may be able to drop a savestate from the full desktop version of Vice and open it on the Caanoo - I did this for my favourite games on the Wiz and they worked fine.
 

Pickle

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Keep in mind its a very easy thing to request make an emu faster, but the practicality of doing it is a totally different thing. Emulation is not easy and you have to know the machine your trying to emulate and the techniques used to emulate. I doubt there are many that could even attempt it. I know for me personally I think i *could*, but at what cost of time to learn what I would need to learn. It just isnt practical. To be honest I think it would be better to start from scratch and write the emulator with the goals you have in mind. If you start with vice your already locked into the goals they had in mind, which is high compatibility and accuracy (which translates into slow emulation)

Caanoo and Wiz are not fast devices and in fact not much faster than the gp2x (when it uses the hw bliiter). Pandora is much faster than the caanoo and wiz. It appears your making the mistake of comparing clock frequencies which mean very little when comparing the two cpus. I dont why the dingoo may work better, i suspect that it may be settings being used.
If you use the wrong setting's with vice you will have a bad experience.

There shouldnt be any reason 2.3 couldnt run.

CCS64 took a look at the page, i failed to see a link for linux, but no that it matters since I saw no mention of source code. It also talked about registering, so the author is trying to make money off it.
 

Hansel75

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Hi again and thanks for the explanations.

As for CCS64, there is an old linux build available to download on the official site, it's down the bottom of there download list, under CCS64 V 1.09 - Linux, Unix.

I also found this if it's of any use, looks like there might be some source material there-

http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/crossplatform/emulators/unix/index.html

I think you only need to register for the advanced features, which are not really needed. I have never had a problem running the free pc version of ccs64.

Also i would like to hear other peoples opinions and experiences with Vice on caanoo.
As i have tried pretty much every option when trying to get my favorite games working smoothly, and while some are playable, a lot are not(to jerky or slow etc). Maybe i'm doing something wrong, load speeds aren't an issue with true drive turned off, compatibility in vice is good, sound is mostly fine when using resid, but the games just aren't smooth at all?

As for frodo, the games are faster and smoother, but the sound is stuttery, and any c64 fan would know it's not worth playing a c64 game without decent sid playback.

Now if we had frodos speed and smoothness, with vice's better sound, that would be a winner. But i can only dream lol.

Thanks for everything, Han.
 

Pickle

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Hansel75 said:
I also found this if it's of any use, looks like there might be some source material there-

http://www.zimmers.n...unix/index.html

No good, the source is only for a wrapper/inteface app that talks to the ccs64 library which is only in binary format. If the library were recompiled for arm then it may work. But no source, no port.
 
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dvp1964

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What is the procedure for getting C64 (and VIC20) games running? For other emulators, I find I need to leave the zip file and it works with it. Not so with Frodo/Vice. But what sequence of buttons/menu choices do you press to get a game running? does it matter if its a disk image, tape, or cartridge? Im not finding this and I have googled it...


thanks in advance....

David
 

foleyjo

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I think that Vice works well.
I play it with Frameskip 1 overclocked at 750 with Realsid.

What I would like to see is a better front end. 1 Similar to the PSP Vice would be ideal.
 

Hansel75

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Hi, sorry for the late reply as i have been away. dvp1964 if you still need any help with the c64 emu's, let me know.

Just remember though that both Vice and Frodo on the caanoo have issues, and don't perform that great in a lot of games.

Running frameskip at 1 in Vice makes the games run smoother, but breaks the sound for me which kind of loses the appeal to play c64 games like, as c64 sid tunes rock.

I also agree a better frontend would be nice to see, and i wish Vice would save it settings so i don't have to set them everytime, like overclocking etc.

Both Vice and Frodo caanoo certainly need some work, there quite jerky in most games, but as mentioned above this looks unlikely to happen:(

Han.
 

qbertaddict

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If you want a portable c64 get a dingoo the native os version is amazing. I dont have a pandora to test and compare but it seems to be better than any version I have seen on a handheld
 

foleyjo

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qbertaddict said:
If you want a portable c64 get a dingoo the native os version is amazing. I dont have a pandora to test and compare but it seems to be better than any version I have seen on a handheld

I hate this type of response. I don't want a Dingoo I bought a Caanoo and I find the Vice C64 emulation more than acceptable for my needs. I just think it would benefit from a nicer frontend like the one on the PSP.

I just want to be able to play some C64 games when I'm travelling. I don't need it to be perfect I have a C64 for that.

Anyway if I wanted a portable 64 I would get a C64-SX .
 
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frolik

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If it wasn't for qbertaddict posting similar on a different thread, I wouldn't have picked up a Dingoo specifically for C64 emulation - and I've not regretted doing so at all! :)

The psp has a nicer interface but also a feature which I think is just genius; the ability to drop a save state in an auto-load slot, so that when you load a particular game it auto loads the savestate directly to the title screen, skipping full game loading. However the PSP is a clunky handheld (by todays standards) with a pretty awful screen, so it's Dingo-modore 64 for me!!!!

ps. I also love gamepark handhelds for other system emulation. :p
 

foleyjo

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I agree with the PSP save state. Also I like the way it allows multiple saves for one game and shows a screenshot. That's the main feature I would like to see on the Caanoo. However I also like the way the menus are laid out.

Dingoo or Caanoo preference is one thing but people requesting features for the Caanoo don't really want to be told to just spend more money and take 2 handheld devices everywhere you go just to play C64 games :blink:
 

vampire8bit

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qbertaddict said:
If you want a portable c64 get a dingoo the native os version is amazing. I dont have a pandora to test and compare but it seems to be better than any version I have seen on a handheld

Is the Vice emu on dingoo full speed with sound in all the games with realsid on? The GP2X version suffered from anoying pausing, skipping and out of sync sounds on demanding games with realsid on, Does the dingoo Vice have these type of problems as well?
 
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frolik

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Hirolaser said:
qbertaddict said:
If you want a portable c64 get a dingoo the native os version is amazing. I dont have a pandora to test and compare but it seems to be better than any version I have seen on a handheld

Is the Vice emu on dingoo full speed with sound in all the games with realsid on? The GP2X version suffered from anoying pausing, skipping and out of sync sounds on demanding games with realsid on, Does the dingoo Vice have these type of problems as well?

Seems fullspeed to me with good sound. There are stacks of emulation options too, but I've looked for realsid and it's not a choice, only fastsid 6581 and fastsid 8580. Maybe it was left out in the build?
 
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vampire8bit

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Thanks for the reply, The major reason I want a Dingoo is for C64 emulation. The only other thing I'm concerned about before I purchase a Dingoo is the screens on the new models. I don't want to derail the thread but I have read on the Dingoo forums that the new models have the ILI9338 LCD and colours are wrong, and washy with some emulators, in particular the gba suffering. Is this a problem with VICE? Does anyone know where I can buy the Dingoo with the older LCD versions?
 

Hansel75

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Hi all, surely our caanoo can do better, isn't it more powerful then a Dingoo? Yet the Dingoo's c64 emulation is superior?

I imagine other caanoo owners into the c64 would feel the same, i would much prefer to see a better c64 emulator on the caanoo, rather then have to buy another handheld solely for one emulator.

Are the any c64 fans out there who would be willing to raise a bounty, for better c64 emulation. I would definitely be interested in contributing.

Han.
 
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