Installation System / Game Marketplace?


Um, perhaps we could have an XBL(Xbox Live) style app store (although the apps shouldn't cost you anything, IMHO). I'll get back to you on this a little later, I just got a great idea for a beautiful, grandmother-grandchild friendly GUI. I do agree with some of the above posts, Pandora will succeed for being open, but I don't think having an attractive GUI could hurt either. While it doesn't really matter to me, I bet most people would like to be able to have their Pandoras connected to the internet and DL stuff directly to it as opposed to click-clack-click-wait-popincard-copy-past-wait-popoutcard-load. In that order. I'm used to transferring files that way, it's not a problem for me, yet it would likely put us ahead if we had a cool GUI for apps. Just saying.
BTW, anybody know of a good program for making stuff like that? I mean an attractive GUI, XBL style. Perhaps it could be customizable.
 
Dunno what XBL is, but if you need a client-side GUI, Qt is always an option, and they're adding some new stuff in 4.6 for cool animated GUIs.
Qt Designer is the tool for creating Qt GUIs.

If you're thinking of something based in JavaScript or a "web app"... ask someone else.
 
I'm pretty sure you're over exaggerating the difficulty of installing something from the repository.
You point your Pandora at the URL (make it a bookmark, if you are so inclined. It can even ship as the default home page for all I care), select the type, subtype, genre, whatever, and then click the file you want, where you save it to the SD card. How is anything you could possibly come up with easier than that? XBL, WiiShop, AppStore, they're all basically the exact same: click through your types and subtypes until you find the thing you want, then select it and it downloads.
As I said before, if you're using WiiShop (or any other app store, XBL in this case) then you should really consider what it is you're arguing against. Literally, sit down and write out everything that you think a web repository entails, why those things are not good, and how they can be improved by a stand alone app store. I'm fairly certain one of us is missing some key points in your argument.
 
Jourdy288 said:
Um, perhaps we could have an XBL(Xbox Live) style app store (although the apps shouldn't cost you anything, IMHO). I'll get back to you on this a little later, I just got a great idea for a beautiful, grandmother-grandchild friendly GUI. I do agree with some of the above posts, Pandora will succeed for being open, but I don't think having an attractive GUI could hurt either. While it doesn't really matter to me, I bet most people would like to be able to have their Pandoras connected to the internet and DL stuff directly to it as opposed to click-clack-click-wait-popincard-copy-past-wait-popoutcard-load. In that order. I'm used to transferring files that way, it's not a problem for me, yet it would likely put us ahead if we had a cool GUI for apps. Just saying.
BTW, anybody know of a good program for making stuff like that?

You exactly got the point i'm trying to make here. I'm very interested in the GUI that poped in your mind.
 
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I'm considering working on a client-side/Pandora app (using Qt) for simple installations and uninstallations. This is MUCH more likely to happen if either: 1) dflemstr's package manager is used, as he's already made it dev-friendly to make an app that ties into the server or 2) if the current archive adds in some feature that provides an easy mechanism by which a developer can retrieve and process the list of applications. I'm wouldn't start development until the "final" file archive is stably in place, so if someone wants to start on something in the meantime, be my guest.

EDIT: It'll probably look similar to and function similarly to "standard" Linux (GUI) package managers (synaptic, shaman, etc). It's not going to be something revolutionary, but I'll make sure it's well designed and easy to use, yet still have all the features that users need.
 
I’ve got to say I think a super easy app installer, built into the standard basic menu system, with the option to make purchases would be a great thing for Pandora. I’m pretty sure the team could sell loads of the things with just a command line interface, but I think some people underestimate how many people there are from the wider community who might like to do Pandora-ish things, but not so much that they can actually be bothered to learn anything.

I always thought that Mobile Phone ring tones were absolute genius. Not the mere act of using a sound clip as a custom ring tone, anyone who had played with the sounds on their computer could easily have come up with that, but I would never have imagined that people would actually pay £4.50 for a 30 second clip of a song that they could have bought on CD for less, on even downloaded off the internet and copied onto their phone for free. That didn’t stop the likes of Jamster from making millions though.

Now I’m not suggesting that Open Pandora should necessarily use Jamster as a model (unless they’re really getting impatient for some return on their investment!), and I’ll be happy copying in command line stuff off the forums or do whatever it takes to install software, but if the option was there, I’d rather press the app store button, and I wouldn’t mind paying for quality stuff.

I don’t know if selling premium apps at a low cost is a viable long term business, Apple seem to be doing quite well out of it, but if a Pandora system didn’t have enough use, it might close or fall into disrepair, and if it did too well people might start to smell the money and ruin it; but I think a very easy to use system would greatly increase the potential Pandora audience, might encourage better software and is definitely a worthy goal.

Wow, this is the first topic I’ve had enough of an opinion on to post on for ages!
 
This idea is a great one, sure a lot of us are fine with a bit of detective work and file management, but the Pandora would be more attractive to novices with a system like this.

One of the major benefits even to experienced users would be the update mechanism which would keep everyone on the latest versions of apps and point out new developments instantly.

Also if it was something designed for the Pandora screen and could be used directly from the Pandora, then people wouldn't need a computer around to configure the Pandora, like they do with the GP2X etc. I could install new stuff, play around with things really easily when I'm travelling without my laptop.

I also think people would try out more applications and games if the process of doing so was made super simple, as there's less to lose if it's disappointing, less time and effort wasted. I often muck about on my iPhone when I'm bored to see if there's anything fun to download and have a go at for a spare few minutes. It's that sort of unplanned participation which a project like this would really kick off and would directly benefit the developers and coders behind small projects.

Obviously the Apple AppStore is the big precedent, but I was also really impressed with recent updates to the Wii Homebrew Channel, that's now completely autonomous and works like a charm. In my opinion, something like that for the Pandora would be a huge benefit.

It's an ambitious project but if anyone tackles it I'm sure they'll get a lot of appreciation from the community...

...it would be a big signifier of the maturity of the Pandora scene, rather than the belt and braces approach of the GP32 and GP2X, much more slick and professional. Much more like how the big boys would do it.

®
 
Shirohagen said:
Also if it was something designed for the Pandora screen and could be used directly from the Pandora, then people wouldn't need a computer around to configure the Pandora, like they do with the GP2X etc. I could install new stuff, play around with things really easily when I'm travelling without my laptop.

It will already work that way. You can use wget, lynx, Firefox, Konqueror, etc. on the Pandora, download a file to an SD card, and then run it.
And it's not difficult at all.

I won't object to the "marketplace" idea since I'm not being forced to work on it, but I will mock the idea that people NEED a simpler way to download a file and run it.
 
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dflemstr said:
Also, chill out! This quote would have been all you would have had to write and I would have understood:

I'm chilled. Just trying to provide everything - especailly quotes - that you might need to follow what I was saying without inferring something else.

dflemstr said:
Of course this all happened because I'm too lazy to reread the thread every once in a while so you can blame it all on me I guess...


Well, that's why I tried to put more in my next post... so everything you needed was "right there" ;)


WizardStan said:
Am I the only one feeling some irony in this thread?
"It's too hard to click-click-click-save to SD. It should be nice and simple like the Wii with its click-click-click-buy"
(I'm saying that there is no real difference between clicking through a categorized website and going through the Wiishop channel, and anyone who uses it as an example of how things should be should re-evaluate what exactly they are arguing about)


Crikey. I wrote a reply to this which I've just cut because it looked like a flaming rant! LOL. which it wasn't meant to be. Let's have another go.

The idea is simplification, so that "innocents" who do not know Linux (or even computers) can "just do it". It's to look and feel "inviting" rather than offputting, and to avoid Pandora customers getting the feeling they have to LEARN not just how to use their Pandora, but even just how to get new games for it! these people might be used to buying a game in the local game shop in town and pushing it into their console when they want to play it. The idea isn't to make it impossible to learn Linux, or terms like "download","save","store","load","run","repository" or even, perhaps, "file" and so on but to make them not be mandatory. To make obtaining and maintaining software (via updates) "just work" without training the users that don't want to be trained.

There's a principle in most stores - ESPECIALLY online stores (but not supermarkets so much) - that I think applies here. That principle is to remove everything from the experience that causes the customer to think about anything except the goods on offer. In a store that's mostly so they can extract the maximum amount from your wallet, but the principle is still sound - rather than force people to think of their Space Invaders maching as a computer that you have to do this, that, and the other with (man working for machine) you get the machine to do the boring repetitive stuff like looking for updates (made possible by a better back-end than a simple file dump) and organising the information in the way that you want.

For example, I'd quite like my default view of "the software available to you" to be "what's new" - what has changed or been added since my last visit. But I might also REALLY quite like the Pandora version of "Qwak" (say) and want to display just all software by Jamie Woodhouse (author) or from publishign house 2D-Boy or...

So the idea is to be able to put almost ANY face on the front end, and to accomplish that to put a more capable back-end on the data. The front-end should minimise what the users brain has to do, from the POV of an "inncoent" to computing terms. Looking like an online store is no bad thing, not "just" because an online store may involve fewer clicks, but because an online store purposefully is designed to show off not how clever the user is, or the manufacturer, or even the store - an online store is designed to vanish into the background as much as possible, to be imperceptable so that the gap between the user and the software he's contemplating is reduced to it's barest minimum.

IMHO.

Personally, perhaps because I'm not QUITE as innocent as the target market that we're talking about here, I've been quite impressed with the way fairly standard Linux repositories work. Ubuntu 8.04 has a repository which works quite well, and an "Install or Remove" application that sits on top of that, if you want, to simplify things even more. IIRC the 9.04 repository increases user-friendliness and approaches the store-like approach (with things like screen shots of programs that you have not downloaded yet) so it seems to me that Linux is already mvoing in an app-store-like direction (regardless of the commercial aspect - it's the "obtaining software" side that they seem to be addressing, and doing well at).

It's seemed/seems rather odd to me that the Pandora software pool seems to be taking several steps backwards from that approach - instead of making it even easier to find what you want, recognise it, and get it running the Pandora File Archive does one thing right - it centralises the software. Almost everything else seems to be a retrograde step compared to other things available now, including Linux (an OS deeply entrenched in the Pandora philosophy). The File Archive is "geeky", and that limits who it will appeal to IMHO. Broadening the appeal will hopefull broaden the market.

Bah. Still too long and sermonish, so I'm going to stop about here. I haven't paid enough attention to dflemstr's solution, partly because it looked like too much effort (esp. with no Pandora in-hand) and boring (after all, I CAN browse a file archive!) but generally speaking I must continue to be behind the idea of increasing ease-of-use of downloading and maintaining software. Something like dflemstr Package Manager plus Craig's desire to be ABLE to charge (or accept donations) could be great IMHO. We could even go look in "Pandora's Box" (repository) and filter it to only show what we currently have installed in order to leave comments, or add "If you like this program then you'll love THAT program" recommendations... it's all about designing the back end to be able to provide as much flexibility as possible, and then leveraging that on the front end (or front ends?).


Bah. On the downside, of course, this might all take more server power and more bandwidth (for the pretty front end) than a simple file dump.
 
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I'm just not sure that the kind of users that would require such a basic interface for adding software would be buying a Pandora over an iphone, a PSP-GO, or even a DS. I don't think there will ever be a future where a device like this will be in everyone's pocket, and I think we are firmly within the realms of anyone being interested either misunderstanding it's purpose ("is this psp 2?") or already being savvy to the homebrew scene. It would be very nice, but I see it as unnecessary.
 
Sugar_Kane said:
I'm just not sure that the kind of users that would require such a basic interface for adding software would be buying a Pandora over an iphone, a PSP-GO, or even a DS. I don't think there will ever be a future where a device like this will be in everyone's pocket, and I think we are firmly within the realms of anyone being interested either misunderstanding it's purpose ("is this psp 2?") or already being savvy to the homebrew scene. It would be very nice, but I see it as unnecessary.


I must admit that I - rather reluctantly - suspect you could be right. At least, right now. But the whole world - even Linux - is moving towards greater ease-of-use. I actually feel that Ubuntu is ahead of Windows in the "ease-of-use" aspect of obtaining more software to work on your computer, while apple PROBABLY (I don't own any Apple devices) leads the crowd in this aspect (at they tend to be very about the user interface).

For you and I, having the Pandora work well for a "geek crowd" is great - but if OpenPandora want to be gazzilionaires (and who doesn't?) then they might do better to aim a little wider - and that's pretty much the whole argument that some people (including myself, at times) have been putting forward. We're enthusiastic about the Pandora and what it could be, if history happens to favour it... and we'd like to tip things in OpenPandora's favour for preferance. More sales = better, kinda thing.
 
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To me it's like the "linux people" (I am one, but I appreciate my windows boxes, too, and my other consumer devices) don't even want the option to have a "nice" interface for getting software. How about this... if you don't want to use a nice interface, don't. I personally think having a shop or a store is a great idea.

Also, I have a blackberry storm and can easily download programs and install them myself, but having Blackberry App World (Blackberry's official "store") is great. I can simply check for updates for installed programs, search for programs games and themes I want, etc. And sure, I can still install beta software and things that aren't in App World, but I must update those myself. I don't know, I like the idea of having an official repo of "stable" software.
 
Monk said:
The idea is simplification, so that "innocents" who do not know Linux (or even computers) can "just do it". It's to look and feel "inviting" rather than offputting, and to avoid Pandora customers getting the feeling they have to LEARN not just how to use their Pandora, but even just how to get new games for it!
*SNIP*
So you're saying that people who find it challenging to click a link on a website will be able to click an icon in a standalone app?
And what's this about learning? You don't need to know anything about Linux to start Firefox. I am very confused by your take on this.
 
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socket said:
To me it's like the "linux people" (I am one, but I appreciate my windows boxes, too, and my other consumer devices) don't even want the option to have a "nice" interface for getting software. How about this... if you don't want to use a nice interface, don't. I personally think having a shop or a store is a great idea.
What? We already have a "nice" interface. The file archive is very clean and easily navigable (for what few files are there right now). I'm arguing against the people that think that this isn't easy enough, and trying to figure out how a stand alone app can possibly make it even easier.
Seriously, all I'm hearing is "web page = hard, standalone app = easy" with no explanations as to why. SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME!
 
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WizardStan said:
socket said:
To me it's like the "linux people" (I am one, but I appreciate my windows boxes, too, and my other consumer devices) don't even want the option to have a "nice" interface for getting software. How about this... if you don't want to use a nice interface, don't. I personally think having a shop or a store is a great idea.
What? We already have a "nice" interface. The file archive is very clean and easily navigable (for what few files are there right now). I'm arguing against the people that think that this isn't easy enough, and trying to figure out how a stand alone app can possibly make it even easier.
Seriously, all I'm hearing is "web page = hard, standalone app = easy" with no explanations as to why. SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME!
Well, the File Archive is quite old, you have to agree with me on that one. Also, a local application just feels more integrated. You might not want to open a browser window to install applications but rather maybe open a page in your system settings panel (à la KPackageKit) to install stuff.

I would actually also prefer to have a local app, but my thoughts when creating the PND Manager was that an intermediary could be possible (which is why the page is optimized to look as uncluttered as possible, to make it feel like something native)
 
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socket said:
You're still just not listening. We're talking about something that would hook into what is installed, etc.
You only briefly touched on removing software in your last post. Every other post in this thread arguing in favour of an app store application has talked about the look and making it easy to install. My statement still stands: how is an app store application distinctly better than a web based repository in either of these regards?
Do not get me wrong, if it really is better than I will be behind it 100%, even if I never use it. My fear is that, in trying to make things better, you may end up making things worse. Anyone who gets a Pandora will already know how to browse a web page, one would hope. Even if they know nothing else, they have to have used a web browser at some point in time. Now you're talking about introducing a different application, and THAT would be something they may have to learn.
 
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Wow, what a lot of apathy towards a simple suggestion of a cool idea. I thought communities like this were supposed to nurture progressive ideas, not maintain the status quo.

It's only a suggestion, and in my opinion a very good one. It should be possible to talk about how it theoretically might be done / what it would look like / how it would work. It's not intended to spoil anyone else's experience.

Anyone here who doesn't like the sound of the idea can go and read another thread, it's no problem. I can't understand why they would instead prefer to stick around and try to derail the idea because they don't like it.

Anyone who does like the idea can discuss it, and who knows, maybe some people with the skills and the inclination can make it happen. If they do, no-one will be forced to use it, but a lot of people will probably really appreciate it.

®
 
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