Is the Pandora's ABXY layout confusing?

Is the ABXY layout confusing?

  • Yes, I get messed up in emulators periodically

    Votes: 2 2.3%
  • Yes, I get messed up in many games and apps (not just emulators) periodically

    Votes: 12 13.6%
  • Yes, I got messed up at first but adapted and now have no problem

    Votes: 7 8.0%
  • Yes, I never got messed up but personally know someone who does periodically

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Maybe, I never got messed up and don't actually know anyone who has but can see how someone might

    Votes: 12 13.6%
  • No, there's sufficient context that I don't see any potential for confusion

    Votes: 55 62.5%

  • Total voters
    88

Are you trolling? So if someone talk on this topic without being agree with you, that's a sabotage? In this case I think this topic should be closed and I should think about truly trying to sabotage it. :lol:
No, he is simply telling you to leave the Greek argument out of this topic. This topic is not about "Latin vs. Greek". In fact, your post was the first post in this topic to even mention Greek letters.

All WizardStan is trying to do is to discuss the problem that Neelix has been championing about confusion between buttons and keys with similar lettering.

-God Ginrai
 
Why want you to talk about Greek letters?  I will respond you just to not let you think that you are right.

Firstly I didn't even defends Greek letters in my post

Confusion isn't a big deal because people can adapt, just as they can adapt to Greek letters, and most people once adapt will never say that it confuse them.

But we trying to chose a labelling which needs less adaptation (starting from 0) and is more logic.

And you anti-no-Latin-letters people act as confusion is the only argument there is with trying to change the labelling while for me the fundamental argument is that this labelling is a sensless flaw design.
I just talked them as an exemple and talk about "anti-no-Latin-letters" people in my main speech, not "anti-Greek letters". So I'm not in Greek letters vs Latin letters, haven't much to say about it anymore, since ED read my arguments.

Secundary you can't deny that this subject is linked to chosing another label (including greek letters :p ), that's why I gave my point of view about how much this subject can contribute to the main debate (since it was made for this).

Thirdly, you bunch of trolls are saboting this thread, saying that I sabotage it and are off-topic while I am not (because of your anti-greek or maybe latin obsession).

To finish, what I have to say is theses poll options are questionable and I don't think it's relevant to make a thread just for this question, since it's just a part of the argumentation against Latin letters, which haven't any sense without the whole.
 
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What's your problem?

There won't be that much confusion.

Let's assume I'm confused because there's 2 times X.

PND manager tells me to press X.

What yo you think will happen?

1:

I will go mad and smash my head against some wall.

I don't know what to do.

Will quit the program immediately and sell my Pandora.

2:

I try the X action button.

If it works I'm happy.

If it doesn't I try the X on Keyboard, as it's the only possibility left for X.

Will remember what was the right button for the next time I use the program and be happy.

That brings up one more question:

Is one single person here really so stupid to not act like possibility 2?
 
But you don't have to remember to hit the A action button when your word processing app's help file tells you to do Ctrl-Home. And your gamepad is probably not using the same letters as everybody else in a different layout.
Not sure what you are saying here. You don't have to worry if your pandora says anything without using the ABXYletters and even then it's not that much of a issue. On the computer, it does differentiate from A key and A button.

My Gamepad has ABXY.

In fact, your post was the first post in this topic to even mention Greek letters.
Link
 
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disagreement does not make a troll, disagreement makes it a discussion. If everyone felt like you there would be a ton topics with basically no replies.

Strong disagreement doesn't even make a troll.

What does make a troll is defending your opinion with your own opinion, being "excessively passionate" about your responses, attacking (not just responding to) other peoples obvious opinions because they don't align with your own. And my personal favorite, accusing people with other points of view as being trolls.

I see someone trying to get a emotional response out of people with their arguments and purposely derailing the topic.
 
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disagreement does not make a troll, disagreement makes it a discussion. If everyone felt like you there would be a ton topics with basically no replies.

Strong disagreement doesn't even make a troll.

What does make a troll is defending your opinion with your own opinion, being "excessively passionate" about your responses, attacking (not just responding to) other peoples obvious opinions because they don't align with your own. And my personal favorite, accusing people with other points of view as being trolls.

I see someone trying to get a emotional response out of people with their arguments and purposely derailing the topic.
And repeating the same image every two or so post.
 
if someone talk on this topic without being agree with you
You stated you didn't think it would cause confusion.I also stated that I didn't think it would cause confusion.

You have a bizarre definition of "agreement" where two people saying the same thing are apparently not in agreement.

Now here's the thing: this poll isn't about you. It never was. It's not about Greek vs Latin vs SONY vs colours or whatever; this poll is asking one question to tackle one argument that didn't make sense to me. You are not the only person arguing against Latin letters, and other people (Neelix and _wb_ mostly, I think) have presented the case several times that having the same key and button symbols will (and does) cause confusion. This troubled me, just how much confusion could it cause, I wondered? Hence the poll.

Right now the numbers are nowhere near statistically valid, but where they stand is 8 with problems to 30 without: that's 21%! If this trend continues it does suggest that there is some kind of problem, with one in five users getting confused. It's not a huge number, but it's not trivial either.
 
Damn, Trolls are saboting the thread. You only attack me but never my arguments. I know that I'm right (maybe you know it too), I will not produce more arguments to counter you (even if I can) since you don't even respond to them but only decide  to: Troll.

[this part doesn't include Wizardstan post]

What's your problem?

There won't be that much confusion.

[...]
Is one single person here really so stupid to not act like possibility 2?
It's not about make unusability, since everyone can use Pandora even if there is Latin letters, it's about improving, chosing a better solution. We all know that the labelling isn't a critical issue.
 
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To finish, what I have to say is theses poll options are questionable and I don't think it's relevant to make a thread just for this question, since it's just a part of the argumentation against Latin letters, which haven't any sense without the whole.
More like for Latin letters base on this poll and all the polls on the layout in general.
Right now the numbers are nowhere near statistically valid, but where they stand is 8 with problems to 30 without: that's 21%! If this trend continues it does suggest that there is some kind of problem, with one in five users getting confused. It's not a huge number, but it's not trivial either.
I think it's trivial, honestly. 3 said they adapted, so I don't know why you added them.
Can't believe that it's so confusing that you would be constantly messing up. smh
 
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Secundary you can't deny that this subject is linked to chosing another label (including greek letters :p ), that's why I gave my point of view about how much this subject can contribute to the main debate (since it was made for this).
 Of course the topics are related. However, if you use that argument to pull in "related" information into every topic, then the topics will be filled with so much crap that they can never actually solve the real purpose the topic was created for. For example, by your reasoning, it is on topic for me to talk about the AllWinner A80 in this topic, since both buttons and the SoC concern the Pyra, so they are linked.

Thirdly, you bunch of trolls are saboting this thread, saying that I sabotage it and are off-topic while I am not (because of your anti-greek or maybe latin obsession).
 I never accused you of sabotaging the thread. However, you are accusing me of doing so. And on top of that, you are calling me a troll. That's very disrespectful, and it's this attitude that is bringing you a lot of hostility from a lot of people in the button topics.

In fact, your post was the first post in this topic to even mention Greek letters.
Link
Damn, I didn't see that. He hadn't edited his post until after I had already read it.

-God Ginrai
 
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if someone talk on this topic without being agree with you
You stated you didn't think it would cause confusion.
I also stated that I didn't think it would cause confusion.


You have a bizarre definition of "agreement" where two people saying the same thing are apparently not in agreement.
I stated that it cause confusion but it's not a big deal. My main statement is that a thread about only this question isn't relevant because it's just a part of the argumentation against Latin letters, which haven't any sense without the whole.

So we aren't agree.
 
What's your problem?

There won't be that much confusion.

Let's assume I'm confused because there's 2 times X.

PND manager tells me to press X.

What yo you think will happen?

1:

I will go mad and smash my head against some wall.

I don't know what to do.

Will quit the program immediately and sell my Pandora.

2:

I try the X action button.

If it works I'm happy.

If it doesn't I try the X on Keyboard, as it's the only possibility left for X.

Will remember what was the right button for the next time I use the program and be happy.

That brings up one more question:

Is one single person here really so stupid to not act like possibility 2?
This is not the problem. As long as it is only using one of the two X buttons, you can indeed learn by trial and error which one it is. A bit annoying maybe, but no harm is done by pressing a button that does nothing.

It is something else if I want to make a program that uses both X buttons. E.g. imagine a Pyra-specific version of the email-client Alpine where action button X is used to go to the next page of emails, and keyboard button X is used to expunge mails that are marked for deletion. I'm not making this up by the way. Now let's say the status bar provides two lines of context-specific help, like this:


(X) NextPage (Y) PrevPage R Reply D Delete U Undelete X eXpunge
(A) FirstPg ( LastPg F Forward C Compose A Apply B Bounce

Do you still think trial and error is good enough? Even if "error" means you may be accidentally removing stuff or doing similar irreversible damage?
 
My main statement is that a thread about only this question isn't relevant because it's just a part of the argumentation against Latin letters, which haven't any sense without the whole.
It's called "divide and conquer". You break up a large problem into smaller problems. Then, after finding the solution to those problems, you then put them back together to help solve the larger problem. That is the essence behind this thread: solving one of the smaller problems so that we can use the solution in the larger discussion.

-God Ginrai
 
Secundary you can't deny that this subject is linked to chosing another label (including greek letters :p ), that's why I gave my point of view about how much this subject can contribute to the main debate (since it was made for this).
Of course the topics are related. However, if you use that argument to pull in "related" information into every topic, then the topics will be filled with so much crap that they can never actually solve the real purpose the topic was created for. For example, by your reasoning, it is on topic for me to talk about the AllWinner A80 in this topic, since both buttons and the SoC concern the Pyra, so they are linked.
This topic is the directly related to action button label, since if action button labels didn't exist, this own would never exist. And this topic are made to respond to one of the main question of labelling issues, so YES it is pertinent to talk about how much it can contribute to the main question which is whether or no we should change labels.

And if you can't get it, I don't care.

Thirdly, you bunch of trolls are saboting this thread, saying that I sabotage it and are off-topic while I am not (because of your anti-greek or maybe latin obsession).
 
I never accused you of sabotaging the thread. However, you are accusing me of doing so. And on top of that, you are calling me a troll. That's very disrespectful, and it's this attitude that is bringing you a lot of hostility from a lot of people in the button topics.
I called you a troll because you intefere in a discussion which is off-topic and that I tried to stop. Nobody care about what you think about whether or not I am right in this off-topic subject, and by interfering, you feed the off-topic. That's what I call Trolling.
 
My main statement is that a thread about only this question isn't relevant because it's just a part of the argumentation against Latin letters, which haven't any sense without the whole.
It's called "divide and conquer". You break up a large problem into smaller problems. Then, after finding the solution to those problems, you then put them back together to help solve the larger problem. That is the essence behind this thread: solving one of the smaller problems so that we can use the solution in the larger discussion.

-God Ginrai
Yes, I agree with this approach. But you have to be careful how to combine such partial results. E.g., it is theoretically possible that you get the following partial results:

- 15% does not like the Pandora layout because of confusion with the keyboard (so 85% thinks it is OK, let's keep it!)

- 15% does not like the Pandora layout because of confusion with emulated ABXY buttons in different spots (so 85% thinks it is OK, let's keep it!)

- 15% does not like the Pandora layout for aesthetical reasons (so 85% thinks it is OK, let's keep it!)

- 15% does not like the Pandora layout because it is boring (so 85% thinks it is OK, let's keep it!)

- 15% does not like the Pandora layout because the order of the letters is not logical (so 85% thinks it is OK, let's keep it!)

Maybe after those 5 hypothetical polls someone will say: we have done 5 polls now, the Pandora layout was fine for a big majority in all of them, so let's keep it!

But with those poll results, even assuming the poll results are all representative of the community as a whole, there could be anything between 15% and 75% that wants to get rid of the Pandora layout: 15% if they all overlap, 75% if they don't overlap at all. Actually it can even be more than 75% because there could be other reasons for not liking the Pandora layout that aren't polled.
 
It's called "divide and conquer". You break up a large problem into smaller problems. Then, after finding the solution to those problems, you then put them back together to help solve the larger problem. That is the essence behind this thread: solving one of the smaller problems so that we can use the solution in the larger discussion.
We aren't in a war, we (at least me) try to find the best solution for the Pyra.

All I see here is a fallacious method to reduce anti-Latin argumentation to "people will confuse buttons". As I said some people already did it in others thread but know you maked a topic especially for this.
 
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(X) NextPage (Y) PrevPage R Reply D Delete U Undelete X eXpunge
(A) FirstPg ( LastPg F Forward C Compose A Apply B Bounce

Do you still think trial and error is good enough? Even if "error" means you may be accidentally removing stuff or doing similar irreversible damage?
Very specific scenario. Anyway, I wouldn't even program it to X it should have been E. I mean why


use keys base on the name, but then change that for X? At least this would be a simple change in software

vs having weird symbols.

Why have something important like that on the same letter? Also, wouldn't the person have read what each button will do before using it?
 
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we (at least me) try to find the best solution for the Pyra.
You're not trying to find anything, you've already stated without question that Greek is the best. Fine, Greek is the best, whatever, who cares. I wanted to know whether the arguments that other users presented, people who are not you, with respect to confusion between keys and buttons held any water.I'm sorry you don't think there's any use in knowing this. Since you have no interest in actually engaging in the intended discussion why don't you just dip off to one of the other four threads where you can rattle off your ideas again, please.
 
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