Keyboard Layout - Prepare Voting Pool.


hey

Something I wanted to quickly mention, that is if you do go ahead with the international layout/stencil (which I think ya should) then I think it would be wise to also have another less detailed backup layout/stencil ready incase the manufacturer is not equipt to print in such fine detail.

I don't really know if such an issue is likely, but I thought I would mention something just in case.

cyas
 
I thought most users who's native language is not English pretty much agreed on having a standard English keyboard with 3 extra keys for thing like the Euro symbol, and to use ^ / \ , and such as modifiers. It seems it's the best solution for minimizing unnecessary clutter and keeping/adding functionality. :)
 
To be honest, I don't see why we're just now getting around to discussing IME applications; I'd have thought it obvious that would be the way to go for internationalization.

One of the colleges I went to easily had one of the most prolific international programs in the state of Washington, with students from outside the United States easily outnumbering resident students (I would say around 70%, maybe more).

Do you know what the computer lab does to accommodate such a wide variety of cultures and languages? An IME language selector the size of your leg. Everybody uses it. Or at least, it's so easy to use that when that is the option available, there are virtually no issues.

Chip, have you ever used IME (or, it's linux cousin, SCIM) input? Or been in an international environment where you would know what works and what doesn't? I'm not calling you out here, I just can't see any reason why you would label it as some 'on screen keyboard' other than ignorance on the subject.
 
Adding onto my sticker idea.
Why not include a bunch of stickers with different language keys on them, and have an option to change the keyboard layout accordingly in the GUI.
It beats having the keyboard cluttered for all us English-only users, and it potentially allows for every major language, not just one specific one (Russians/Cyrillic).
 
yosh64 said:
Something I wanted to quickly mention, that is if you do go ahead with the international layout/stencil (which I think ya should) then I think it would be wise to also have another less detailed backup layout/stencil ready incase the manufacturer is not equipt to print in such fine detail.
Surely if they cannot print the keys properly you've gone to the wrong supplier to get the keys printed?
PlopperZ said:
Adding onto my sticker idea.
Why not include a bunch of stickers with different language keys on them, and have an option to change the keyboard layout accordingly in the GUI.
It beats having the keyboard cluttered for all us English-only users, and it potentially allows for every major language, not just one specific one (Russians/Cyrillic).
Chip has said the stickers will be too expensive. Unless someone says otherwise.
 
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Gilrad - Pandora is different. It's not that you are moved into another country and have to use keyboard without your language. For example in Russia we use russian language pretty often xD So it will be pain in the arse to type "Я" for example using "ya". After that I'll just stop posting on Russian forums for example. It's not that good for this situation.

Now think that way, you're at home with your fav keyboard, standard inputs. And every time you switch devices you need to relearn how to type your language? And bacicaly you said "I need only English, and if i need something else I dont care how to print it".

PlopperZ - There's only Cyrillic proposal just because there is no one with entirely different charset on the forum, who is suggesting some layouts. IMO.
 
Hotcooler said:
Pandora is different. It's not that you are moved into another country and have to use keyboard without your language.

For example in Russia we use russian language pretty often xD So it will be pain in the arse to type "Я" for example using "ya". After that I'll just stop posting on Russian forums for example. It's not that good for this situation.
All of the IMEs I've used have been standardized enough that there is some consensus on what keys do what- at least more so than these threads. Ultimately, software WILL HAVE TO BE USED to accommodate everyone on one level or another. I use Japanese daily, and I'm perfectly fine with a US keyboard. I've looked at and considered using Japanese keyboards before- the IME is powerful and easy enough to use that I don't care.

Depending on the language and character you're inputting the IME may behave differently. For instance, it only takes me one character to input ん(N), versus ろ(Ro) Sometimes I need conversion. こと(koto), then space to convert to kanji, 事(koto).

From what I observed while watching my friend type Russian, it only took one key per character on average.
 
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TaG said:
Chip has said the stickers will be too expensive. Unless someone says otherwise.
Surely they can't be that expensive.

@Hotcooler
True, but I've heard of lots of people from Europe express concern over accented letters, etc.
I know a few Koreans that plan on buying, and I know they'd benefit from a Korean labeled keyboard.

Stickers could also be useful for Dvorak layouts and such.

Just an idea.
 
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PlopperZ said:
TaG said:
Chip has said the stickers will be too expensive. Unless someone says otherwise.

Surely they can't be that expensive.That was my original thought, but they need to be 'quality' stickers with decent adhesive to avoid problems. They need to be small and different colours possibly, so they are likely to be custom. I have no idea how much they could cost.
 
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i have test scim this morning and it is very simple to use :) if you know the name of letters you want :

to have αβπεΣ only need tape 'abpeS' because α is alpha, β is beta, π is pi, ε is epsilon and Σ is Sigma ( in capital ) ( sorry i only know few letters of greek alphabet :rolleyes: )

So English ( i prefer say Latin : not only english :D ) Keyboard with scim support could be very easy to use :) to another alphabet (greek, cyrillic ...) or writting system ( japanese, chinese .....)

For accent and 'diacritic' Kagato soluce seems ok for me and show others that we find soluce for it
and dead key could be always possible as option ( "^'`~ ) could be work as dead key as an option for people which need it.

we only need find place for ß , ¿ , ¡
maybe with AltGr with B, ?, ! or with 'Accent' , linux give us a lot of soluce

In conclusion i will say than Scim must be installed by default :) to have a great international device ;)
 
Arialia said:
In conclusion i will say than Scim must be installed by default :) to have a great international device ;)
Its great to hear that someone actually tested my idea. I really suggest everyone here for / against either the international layout at least try both before actually coming to a conclusion on this. If it doesn't matter to you at ALL (as in, you only speak English, don't care to use other languages), pass this advice by.

For Ubuntu, simply go to the Gnome Panel's System => Language Support. Check off a language you'd like to input, and Ubuntu will install the necessary SCIM packages for you. Ctl-Alt-Backspace to restart your X Session and the SCIM IME is in the tray. Single Click on it, and select the language you want to input, and type away. There are settable keyboard shortcuts for switching languages and switching the IME off (returning you to your default language). These can be changed by right clicking the tray icon, and hitting settings.
 
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It would be good to have something close to US layout, using shoulder buttons as CTRL and ALT/ALTGR (Alt = Fn+AltGr, maybe?) but leave Fn-dpad free to use for accents and such, after running some configuration utility,

I guess most people should be happy then:
- Simple layout (not too cluttered - not that it would matter to me)
- Internationalized enough for other languages using latin alphabet
- SCIM for other alphabets (typing fast enough after learning curve.)

EDIT: internet access bugginess.
 
MilanC said:
It would be good to have something close to US layout, using shoulder buttons as CTRL and ALT/ALTGR (Alt = Fn+AltGr, maybe?) but leave Fn-dpad free to use for accents and such, after running some configuration utility,

I guess most people should be happy then:
- Simple layout (not too cluttered - not that it would matter to me)
- Internationalized enough for other languages using latin alphabet
- SCIM for other alphabets (typing fast enough after learning curve.)

EDIT: internet access bugginess.
Kagato's layouts use Fn-Down to cycle between accents for the last typed character, which leaves left, right, and up for back tab, tab, and AltGr.

http://i37.tinypic.com/9vgkyo.png
 
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How about any and/or all of them?

The idea that making multiple keyboard layouts or small-run layouts is prohibitively expensive is an outdated notion. I've done this kind of custom work on DS, PSP, and several laptops using a high-end industrial laser engraver I've got access to. For instance, making a custom logo on the back of a PSP. Or on the lid of a DS. The heat is only on the surface so the internal electronics aren't even heated up in the slightest, it's completely safe.

Modern laser engravers are incredibly flexible devices, you can do just about anything with them, and very rapidly, with virtually 100% accuracy. Looks OEM if you're good at it.

The only thing that takes time is the initial setup - and once you know the exact position of every key, custom layouts are a snap. Initial setup would take 4-6 hours for something this complex, in my estimation.

So there'd be an initial setup fee for the first unit, and from there on a much smaller amount per unit. I can't make a real guess how much it'd cost but as a wild guess $2000 for 1000 units custom marked - in any language. So in that 1000 units you might have 5 Finnish ones, 100 French ones, 20 Japanese ones, 1 Chinese one, 500 English ones.... 1000 units in with languages split into any groupings you want, custom-marked, with any size of font, at any depth, with the entire key being light and the letter dark or the entire key being dark and the letter light, any font (maybe you want to be the only person in the world with a font from a specific movie or game?), etc... One-offs not a problem, same price for any marking.

And if you only need a much smaller run, say, only 100 unique units, I still wouldn't charge something outrageous. You'd get a better deal the more you ask for of course but I'm not going to gouge anyone. Maybe $200 for the initial setup and $3 a unit after that - wild guess, might be more, might be less, but probably not much different.

The ONLY problem would be if the material the keys are made from doesn't stay consistent from one unit or batch to the next, that could produce unfortunate side-effects :p

You would just tell the Pandora guys what you want, they ship it to me, I ship it back the same day I receive it...

This is the part where I ask for a free Pandora sent to me, right? So I can "test it" or something. No, all I need are the keys. Send me 50 keys or so, so I can get it right, I send back samples to prove I'm capable of doing what I say I am, I put a deposit on one unit you send to me, I send it back marked completely, I get my deposit back and get paid. Sound fair? I could theoretically do 1,000 or more of them in a week.

I do this for a living - in the last 6 months alone I've engraved thousands of parts, their total market value being tens of millions of dollars CAD. That's not the value of the engraving alone, of course! But that's the sort of value I'm used to working with, every part I touch up till now is worth $1000 or so minimum, some of them worth twice that just in raw materials. No promises until I've worked with the particular keys you're using, but I've done this kind of thing before.

Now, here's the good part: it can be done at any time. Additional marks can be made on already-complete keys, and depending on the material the keys are made from and how the initial marks (letters) are made on them (if any), I could also completely clear any marks off the keys and make original ones. So remove the "A" entirely from the "A" key and replace it with a ¿ or something.

Again, let me repeat once more, it depends completely on the material the key is made from, but I've something similar to this on other devices without much difficulty.

If the Pandora guys are interested in this, let PM me. If anyone else is interested, same deal. For an individual unit I might be able to do it for $50 or something. I'm considering doing custom jobs and listing them on ebay at some time in the future as well... seems like something a lot of people are interested in.

edit: Re-reading this, I wasn't sure if I was clear. I'm talking about completely-remarking every key on the Pandora's keyboard as well as adding marks of virtually any kind on any other locations you want. For instance I could make marks above or below keys if you want the original marks on the keys to remain pristine. I'm not a company so I have no overhead expenses, nor am I a salesman so I don't know how to effectively rip people off... You won't find a better deal anywhere else.
 
Personally, I dont care WHAT is printed on the actual keys, as long as they are customizable in software. There will be a learning curve anyway when doing any fast typing, so it would be easy enough for me to remember any customized keys.

SCIM is also a given. Even if it's not available at launch, it's something that will really open this device up. I mean, in Japan the keyboards DO have a mode to use one kana per key, but most people I know just end up using the keyboards in US-ish mode with an input editor (like Aire demonstrated above).
 
I'm back (damned access point burn out and I'll be 3 days without net) :)
Thanks for MWeston reply, he clear some speculations and expectations.

Cosurgi, please remove obsolete designs from voting. Ie all Kagato and me that evolve to final one.
AFAIK, Vote can be established while creating new thread.
OR (more difficulty and hand made) just gather few final templates and every body post JUST ONE post with 3 votes (or less), in order that he wish to give to 3 (ore less) templates. So if he most wanted is not voted, move his (her) vote to second in order. I don't know if I tell it clearly, do you understand me?

Kagato, I guess that you finally draft is da best. I'm for not labeling game and pad controls. May be we can drop even F1 to F12 labels too (to minimize amount of printed symbols on one key), and maximize character and symbol size as far as can be nested on key. It's for MWeston note about key smallness.

edit: I think, that every picture with layout needs description. Ie, from Kagato's template isn't obvious how to type national characters, nor even that it is possible, and using others unlabeled keys.
 
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i confirm again SCIM is great on US layout ( i test it on French layout and have some surprises : the 'A' sound is on key 'Q' for example , i think SCIM work on Keycode and not Keysym , so need certainly a work on file config for Pandora Keyboard )

In fact on a little device like Pandora the position of key is not a real problem : we can't type on it like dactylo :p , as french i prefer an US layout with dead key for accent ( ^`) and ( " ' , ) can be use for ( ¨ ´ ¸ )

[¸] is cedilla find on ç Ç and others letters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedilla

i discover very interesting things about alphabets by all these threads :D

for spanish : ~ can be use too to make ñ

i find that too just now : http://www.starr.net/is/type/kbh.html very interesting

in more thinking i find US layout international really best even for non english like me ( as i am not a dactylo and always look keyboard to find letters :rolleyes: )
why my laptop has french layout :huh: , so poor :rolleyes: :lol:
don't want any bad layout than this :lol:

maybe Russian guys here could test SCIM as i do for greek ?

[Edit]
find this too : http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Accented_Characters
 
I vote for this one:
2i919jt.jpg


It has all the good stuff but doesn't put anything on the non-keyboard keys which can be used by the program freely, even if it's a typing program. And that's good.
 
Even in layouts that use d-pad and nubs, they can be used by the program freely (well, maybe not the nubs, but at least the d-pad) - because it's Fn-dpad that sends the keypress

QUOTE
Kagato's layouts use Fn-Down to cycle between accents for the last typed character, which leaves left, right, and up for back tab, tab, and AltGr.

I'm afraid it will be a nice way to lose time while typing. And, it might be an ugly hack - some program remembers last keypress, and when you press the accents key combination, it sends backspace+(last typed character but with next accent in list).
Anyway, apart from that, I think his last draft is still the best layout I've seen

@Kyosys: I don't see any accents on that one
 
MilanC said:
QUOTE
Kagato's layouts use Fn-Down to cycle between accents for the last typed character, which leaves left, right, and up for back tab, tab, and AltGr.

I'm afraid it will be a nice way to lose time while typing.

I don't think so. If you want type accented char, you must press accent key in any case. In Kagato'd layout every language has own accent order by using frequency. I don't see significant difference between (pressing) ´e (2 keypress) for é or shift+ˇe (3 keypress) for ě and Kagatos e Fn+accentkey (3 keypress) for é or e Fn+accentkey Fn+accentkey (5 keypress) for ě. Yes, more keypresses, but it is expectable on such small keyboard.
MilanC said:
And, it might be an ugly hack - some program remembers last keypress, and when you press the accents key combination, it sends backspace+(last typed character but with next accent in list).
Aha, it may be really issue. I expect than SW can easy handle what is pressed after what, so some combination as BS and accent don't be issue at all. But such style of typing still can be source of "last keypress misunderstand issue".
MilanC said:
Anyway, apart from that, I think his last draft is still the best layout I've seen
+1

I'll be more glad to see this layout, as national support can still be worked around. Ie - by mapping accent on game controls if somebody don't want to use mouse mode, desktop scroll or so one. I personally map accents directly on Fn-Up/Down and Fn-Shift-Up/Down (4 accent is all I may need (I hope :) )) and not need AltGr for switching keyboard national layouts.
 
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