Linux: What`s yours called

[Gerix]

This is interesting, because I used to have this problem regularly with the proprietary NVDIA driver - the kernel module that interfaced with the driver had to be recompiled every time the kernel was updated, and I always had to manually update and compile that module. I haven't had to do this in over a year, though - was that the same driver you had problems with?

Yes, this was the issue - a kernel update didn't include the reconfiguration steps to compile the nvidia kernel module. The fix was simple, but if I didn't have another computer with which to look it up it would have been a pretty major problem.

Couldn't you have used links to look up the solution?

 

[pder]

This is interesting, because I used to have this problem regularly with the proprietary NVDIA driver - the kernel module that interfaced with the driver had to be recompiled every time the kernel was updated, and I always had to manually update and compile that module. I haven't had to do this in over a year, though - was that the same driver you had problems with?

Yes, this was the issue - a kernel update didn't include the reconfiguration steps to compile the nvidia kernel module. The fix was simple, but if I didn't have another computer with which to look it up it would have been a pretty major problem.

Couldn't you have used links to look up the solution?

changing the driver from "nvidia" to "nv" or "vesa" in xorg.conf works in a pinch too.

 

[Gerix]

changing the driver from "nvidia" to "nv" or "vesa" in xorg.conf works in a pinch too.

That's good to know. I don't think nVidia develops their website with text browsers in mind.

 

[dflemstr]

I don't think that there should be any DKMS errors nowadays. Yes, I can understand that the recompilation failed back when DKMS was non-standard and poorly integrated (pro tip to Ubuntu: when you add new features, don't use Perl to inject them into the boot process... please?) but things should have settled now. I myself haven't had to touch my xorg.conf file in at least a year (on any computer I've installed a new Linux installation on), and driver compilation failures? Pah!

 

[WizardStan]

changing the driver from "nvidia" to "nv" or "vesa" in xorg.conf works in a pinch too.

Ubuntu automatically adds a recovery mode to the boot menu. Selecting that option lets you "repair X server" or whatever it says exactly, which usually gives me a 640x480 screen in vesa. I've had to use it on more than one kernel update.

 

[Creature XL]

I was asked to help someone set up a new Windows 7 machine recently, and I found it incredibly frustrating. Never again, no thankyou. :lol: )

If you had problems installing W7 then you should stay away from every Windows-Installing-Job.
W7 was the most easiest Windows to install

EDIT: Ah, now I realise you don't mean INSTALL you mean Set UP. OK.


@Exophase:
I know you are a cabable man. But was thre really more to do then doing

sh NVIDIA* -s --update

Where as NVIDIA* is any driver you downloaded.

 

[Prometheus]

Who said I was installing? Note that I said "set up". Windows 7 was OEM-installed.

I was actually called in to replace it with Ubuntu, but we couldn't do so due to 1: the machine containing hardware that requires booting with the "noapic", and 2: the newer Ubuntu releases using GRUB2 instead of GRUB, which I have quickly come to hate with a passion because it turned out to be far more difficult to adjust GRUB2's settings than it is to adjust GRUB's (the problem is, the thing locks up before it finishes booting, making this so much more difficult). Also, when the machine was running from the LiveCD, it wouldn't enable or show any availability for the nVidia graphics chipset that the thing has, and only allowed 800x600 at most for the resolution.

Normally the folks who own the machine would have taken more time to find something out-of-the-box Linux-compatible, but their old machine had suddenly died, and they needed something right away.

When it became obvious that Ubuntu is currently a no-go, I was asked to assist with making Windows 7 usable for them instead. This involved trudging around to various websites in order to obtain necessary software (from firewalls to the users' browser of choice to word processors, all of which is provided out-of-the-box with Ubuntu), and also involved a large number of restarts after installing software (which I tend to find that I never have to do with any form of Linux unless the kernel is being updated, or something similarly important). All of us found it incredibly frustrating. We can but hope that their new machine is more friendly towards the new Long Term Support release.

EDIT: Haha, looks like I got edit-ninja'd whilst I was writing my post.

EDIT 2: I should also note that having to trudge around and download stuff from different places is my one gripe with Mac OS X, which I also use on a daily basis - it's by no means something I consider to be a Windows-only issue.

 

[VRAndy]

I second the stability concerns. About a week ago an automatic update on Ubuntu hosed my video driver and locked me out of X. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. Nothing like that has ever happened to me on Windows.

People make fun of Debian for being a little conservative with its updates, but Ubuntu users keep telling stories like this.

I haven't actually used it, but with all these stories of updates braking things, it's difficult to imagine using Ubuntu on system used for serious work.

 

[Prometheus]

@VRAndy - That's why I only use the LTS versions, myself.

 

[mahousaru]

I second the stability concerns. About a week ago an automatic update on Ubuntu hosed my video driver and locked me out of X. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. Nothing like that has ever happened to me on Windows.

People make fun of Debian for being a little conservative with its updates, but Ubuntu users keep telling stories like this.

I haven't actually used it, but with all these stories of updates braking things, it's difficult to imagine using Ubuntu on system used for serious work.

Nothing wrong with updates. Updates are good.

Please don't fall into the FUD trap that closed source companies try to propagate that more updates = poorer experience.

Serious work we have test environments and always test test test test test before rolling a patch!

 

[diegor]

I would say that for the typical end user experience, not a lot of GNU software is really even coming into the picture. The Linux kernel will be at the core of operation, with a window server such as X11, and a window manager - this may be GNOME, but it may also very well not be (as on Pandora).

Kernel is just a program like all the others. It can also be replaced (see below). But that's not the point.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the term 'GNU'. What is GNU in general? What does it consist of? There is a very simple definition. Every program released under GPL (GNU General Public License) or compatible license is a part of GNU. That's all. Linux is also a part of GNU. As well as GNOME (GNU Network Object Model Environment), GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program), Firefox, Thunderbird, etc.
So if your operating system is a free software - it's GNU. If it contains a proprietary software like flash plugin, then it's not pure GNU. That's my opinion.

That's your own definition. But is only your.

GNU is composed by software where copyright is given to FSF. That is.

You can find which software is gnu here:

http://directory.fsf.org/GNU/

So Linux is not a GNU project, GIMP is not a gnu project, firefox is not a GNU program at all.

So your wrong and incompetent.

Edit: Gimp is in the list, so it is a Gnu Project. I was wrong and incompetent

 

[VRAndy]

Nothing wrong with updates. Updates are good.

Please don't fall into the FUD trap that closed source companies try to propagate that more updates = poorer experience.

Did you notice where I mentioned Debian? Debian has plenty of updates. I believe it was one of first ones to have what I would consider a "modern" package management system.[sup]*[/sup] (You didn't think Ubuntu invented updates, did you?)

The difference is that Debian (theoretically) makes a point of being thoughtful about its updates instead of rushing to include the latest and greatest. Valuing stability over cutting edge. So (like I mentioned) people often make fun of Debian because it's (non-security) updates are sometimes a little out-of-step with everyone else's. I'm pretty sure I'd rather suffer through with last week's Gimp package if it means that I don't have stories about how "unreliable" Linux is!


[sup]*[/sup] (I could be wrong about that. I'm not really up on my Linux history.)


And now, here's my same reply but with 100% more sarcasm!

Nothing wrong with updates. Updates are good.

Please don't fall into the FUD trap that closed source companies try to propagate that more updates = poorer experience.

Damn those close-source propagandists running the Debian project!

 

[mahousaru]

Nothing wrong with updates. Updates are good.

Please don't fall into the FUD trap that closed source companies try to propagate that more updates = poorer experience.

Did you notice where I mentioned Debian? Debian has plenty of updates. I believe it was one of first ones to have what I would consider a "modern" package management system.[sup]*[/sup] (You didn't think Ubuntu invented updates, did you?)

The difference is that Debian (theoretically) makes a point of being thoughtful about its updates instead of rushing to include the latest and greatest. Valuing stability over cutting edge. So (like I mentioned) people often make fun of Debian because it's (non-security) updates are sometimes a little out-of-step with everyone else's. I'm pretty sure I'd rather suffer through with last week's Gimp package if it means that I don't have stories about how "unreliable" Linux is!


[sup]*[/sup] (I could be wrong about that. I'm not really up on my Linux history.)


And now, here's my same reply but with 100% more sarcasm!

Nothing wrong with updates. Updates are good.

Please don't fall into the FUD trap that closed source companies try to propagate that more updates = poorer experience.

Damn those close-source propagandists running the Debian project!

My point is even though you were specifically talking about Deb, you were talking about patches in a bad light.

Look at your statement, I'll highlight the important bits for you since you want to be sarcastic

"People make fun of Debian for being a little conservative with its updates, but Ubuntu users keep telling stories like this.

I haven't actually used it, but with all these stories of updates braking things, it's difficult to imagine using Ubuntu on system used for serious work."

Maybe you wished to have a pop at Ubuntu, maybe you wanted to show your support of Deb, but I easily read it as Ubuntu less conservative in its updates, updates breaks things.

What is the next link?

For a fudder it would most likely be "things that update more frequently, break more frequently"

You have to be oh so careful not to fuel the FUD. If you even have a little wish to support FOSS in anyway then this is one of big things. Spot what the fudders are using to alienate potential users (especially upper management) from FOSS projects and make sure you are clear about it.

The most important thing is choice...

I can choose to install deb stable or go sid.

I can also choose to install ubuntu lts or go 1/2 yearly release.

The most important thing is I have choice. If a distro chooses to not go for latest I no longer have the choice to roll with a package produced by them. Especially since you were hinting that about ubuntu and serious work. One of the big things about enterprise systems is not breaking the expensive support contracts that we pay companies. Nothing worse for your own job then to find that the tarball which have packaged and rolled which might invalidated the support!

 

[b1llygo4t]

the term "computer operating system" has been wrongfully defined by its industry, and this can be misleading.

lets break the term down into parts

a
Main Entry: com·put·er
Pronunciation: \kəm-ˈpyü-tər\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Date: 1646

: one that computes; specifically : a programmable usually electronic device that can store, retrieve, and process data

Main Entry: sys·tem
Pronunciation: \ˈsis-təm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin systemat-, systema, from Greek systēmat-, systēma, from synistanai to combine, from syn- + histanai to cause to stand — more at stand
Date: 1603

1 : a regularly interacting or interdependent group of items forming a unified whole <a number system>: as a (1) : a group of interacting bodies under the influence of related forces <a gravitational system> (2) : an assemblage of substances that is in or tends to equilibrium <a thermodynamic system> b (1) : a group of body organs that together perform one or more vital functions <the digestive system> (2) : the body considered as a functional unit c : a group of related natural objects or forces <a river system> d : a group of devices or artificial objects or an organization forming a network especially for distributing something or serving a common purpose <a telephone system> <a heating system> <a highway system> <a computer system> e : a major division of rocks usually larger than a series and including all formed during a period or era f : a form of social, economic, or political organization or practice <the capitalist system>
2 : an organized set of doctrines, ideas, or principles usually intended to explain the arrangement or working of a systematic whole <the Newtonian system of mechanics>
3 a : an organized or established procedure <the touch system of typing> b : a manner of classifying, symbolizing, or schematizing <a taxonomic system> <the decimal system>
4 : harmonious arrangement or pattern : order <bring system out of confusion — Ellen Glasgow>
5 : an organized society or social situation regarded as stultifying or oppressive : establishment 2 —usually used with thez

Main Entry: op·er·ate
Pronunciation: \ˈä-pə-ˌrāt, ˈä-ˌprāt\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): op·er·at·ed; op·er·at·ing
Etymology: Latin operatus, past participle of operari to work, from oper-, opus work; akin to Old English efnan to perform, Sanskrit apas work
Date: 1588

intransitive verb 1 : to perform a function : exert power or influence <factors operating against our success>
2 : to produce an appropriate effect <the drug operated quickly>
3 a : to perform an operation or a series of operations b : to perform surgery c : to carry on a military or naval action or mission
4 : to follow a course of conduct that is often irregular <crooked gamblers operating in the club>transitive verb 1 : bring about, effect
2 a : to cause to function : work b : to put or keep in operation
3 : to perform an operation on; especially : to perform surgery on

Main Entry: sys·tem
Pronunciation: \ˈsis-təm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin systemat-, systema, from Greek systēmat-, systēma, from synistanai to combine, from syn- + histanai to cause to stand — more at stand
Date: 1603

1 : a regularly interacting or interdependent group of items forming a unified whole <a number system>: as a (1) : a group of interacting bodies under the influence of related forces <a gravitational system> (2) : an assemblage of substances that is in or tends to equilibrium <a thermodynamic system> b (1) : a group of body organs that together perform one or more vital functions <the digestive system> (2) : the body considered as a functional unit c : a group of related natural objects or forces <a river system> d : a group of devices or artificial objects or an organization forming a network especially for distributing something or serving a common purpose <a telephone system> <a heating system> <a highway system> <a computer system> e : a major division of rocks usually larger than a series and including all formed during a period or era f : a form of social, economic, or political organization or practice <the capitalist system>
2 : an organized set of doctrines, ideas, or principles usually intended to explain the arrangement or working of a systematic whole <the Newtonian system of mechanics>
3 a : an organized or established procedure <the touch system of typing> b : a manner of classifying, symbolizing, or schematizing <a taxonomic system> <the decimal system>
4 : harmonious arrangement or pattern : order <bring system out of confusion — Ellen Glasgow>
5 : an organized society or social situation regarded as stultifying or oppressive : establishment 2 —usually used with the

now

Main Entry: 1pro·gram
Pronunciation: \ˈprō-ˌgram, -grəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: French programme agenda, public notice, from Greek programma, from prographein to write before, from pro- before + graphein to write — more at carve
Date: 1633

1 [Late Latin programma, from Greek] : a public notice
2 a : a brief usually printed outline of the order to be followed, of the features to be presented, and the persons participating (as in a public performance) b : the performance of a program; especially : a performance broadcast on radio or television
3 : a plan or system under which action may be taken toward a goal
4 : curriculum
5 : prospectus, syllabus
6 a : a plan for the programming of a mechanism (as a computer) b : a sequence of coded instructions that can be inserted into a mechanism (as a computer) c : a sequence of coded instructions (as genes or behavioral responses) that is part of an organism

would indicate that a program tells a machines operating system how to reach an intended goal.

so a computer operating system is defined as a system a computer can use to achieve an intended goal by operating a given program.

really what it comes down to is who defines the parts of the OS. with windows/mac it is a company (driving force) looking for a mass marketable tool, for linux its the user (driving force) looking for a specific or general tool.

im drunk your all welcome to flame be for TL;DR or being wrong. emboogalard

 

[tristan.clark]

Originally a computer was a person who did computations (maths) not a machine. Since people designed all this software and hardware we are talking about and people are a collection of chemicals and electrical impluses then human consciousness is a operating system. This operating system is free, we all have it , it can be modified by learning, training and experience, partial back ups are possible by writing stuff down.

RMS may be extreme in his views and somewhat entrenched, but may be he did some good kick starting Linux through GNU and keeps people thinking about what it should be regardless of whether they agree with him or not.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer

 

[mahousaru]

RMS kicked started Linux through GNU.... errrr.... errrrmmmm..... surely that goes to Linus and Minix rather then RMS and GNU....

In terms of what to call Linux how about from Linus?

Email from Linus about naming of distros

 

[tristan.clark]

RMS kicked started Linux through GNU.... errrr.... eeerrrr..... surely that goes to Linus and Minix rather then RMS and GNU....

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying RMS is solely responsible, just a part of the picture.

 

[Vitel]

ucLibc and newlib are also parts of GNU, because they are free software (released under GPL or compatible license).

Here's a list of GNU software for you (I dont know if it's totally complete, but the best i could find).
GPL is just a license, you can use it on any software - it doesnt need to be GNU software.
And you're saying if the license is GPL compatible then it's GNU software? Is FreeBSD a part of GNU because the BSD license (3 or 2 clause) is GPL compatible? Hell no.

Looks like you are right. I was wrong regarding my GNU definition. Thanks for clarification.
BTW, the phrase I mentioned above "XXX is a GNU/Linux distro" seems to be incorrect as well, because most of distros I ever used provide much more software besides the 'GNU project'. Things are getting complicated.

Kernel itself cannot be an operating system. It cant's even load itself without a boot loader (like grub).

There exists hardware/firmware that can load an entire kernel...

What is this all about? Are you trying to say me that a kernel itself _can_ be an operating system? And a PC without a bootloader is something very unusual like programming down to the bare kernel without using a libc.

Most computer users, even users of Linux, are not programmers at all. So therefore GCC isn't the most useful part of what they consider their OS.

Not only programmers use gcc. For example, every Gentoo user has to install gcc due to the nature of the portage system. Furthermore if you use a binary packaging system like deb or rpm and you want to change a package (just a configure flag, for example), you have to install gcc. So gcc on a GNU/Linux PC is a very usual thing IMHO.

I second the stability concerns. About a week ago an automatic update on Ubuntu hosed my video driver and locked me out of X. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. Nothing like that has ever happened to me on Windows.

Are you trying to make another 'Linux vs Windows' holy war over this?

 

[TrashyMG]

I call mine Fedora Core, I call my computer My Linux Box.. I don't give a crap about what I should be calling it or the details of why it's so. I program on it, I surf the web.. I sometimes play games on it. It does what I want.

A drunken statement by

-TrashyMG

 

[Ollonk]

Edit: @Vitel

I believe I sparked the stability conversation - and no, I don't want a "ONOSZ WINDOWS ARE TEH GOOD. FREE STUF ARE NOT THE SENSE" Windows is good in its own right mostly because it has had a huge staff of debuggers to make sure, that at least without lots of 3rd party software, it is stable. I use Linux 95% of the time, but sometimes when Linux has a hiccup (like when I upgraded to OpenSuSe and wifi wouldn't work and broke Ubuntu's grub entry) I used my XP partition so I would have something to use.

IMO, both operating system families have leagues to come. Linux is like a race car: it works great when it works, but if you screw up, it crashes and burns.... Windows is more like an old station wagon: sure it runs almost without failure, but you have to keep it clean and it's still slow as tortoise riding a snail. (I deal exclusively with home/office stuff, never have so much as operated a server.)