Optional 3G/UMTS module


You simply did not include enough information in your original statement about A40s.

This is what pops up for astar a40 in a Google search.

The A40 Audio system:

http://www.astrogaming.com/a40-audio-system/A40-AUDIO-SYSTEM-ASTRO.html?dwvar_A40-AUDIO-SYSTEM-ASTRO_color=White#start=1

I looked for a*star a40 and astar a40 on the BestBuy website and could not find anything that looks remotely like your pictured unit.

I WAS able to find the gigantic cans for PC gaming at BestBuy.com, however those are NOT appropriate for this use.

After more searching I found these which appear to be what you have:

http://www.amazon.com/ASTRO-Gaming-Star-ear-Headset/dp/B005EZ09V6

They are NOT A40s. They are also, apparently, discontinued.

Your use-case is obscure at best and most likely invalid.

Real use cases are going to be someone picking up a set of headphones with mic and expecting them to simply work. For that expectation, sadly, it is the Apple bastardized 'standard' with the swapped mic and ground.

What you have shown is a discontinued exception to that rule. That may be a case for adding a switch to make your use case possible, but definitely doesn't work as a 'default' configuration.

Please find something even remotely mainstream AND available. A good place to start looking for examples is here:

http://www.headphone.com/index.php
No, once again, you are not reading what I said:

But I can say that my Astro A40s and my a*star headsets all use the original standard.
My point is that you are wrong about the A40s and you are also wrong about the a*star earsets. All you are doing is looking at pictures you found in google and throwing together poorly crafted arguments based on them. Take a hint from thatgui and actually do some research before you try to talk like you understand what I am talking about.

-God Ginrai
Nope. Not wrong. Yes I did my research. The A40s are giant cans for PC gaming. They are not appropriate for phone call use on a portable device. You could probably make them work in a pinch, but you'd look like a moron.

Please show me where to buy those little in-ear headsets with mic that you showed. The last review I could find on them was from 2011. They are no longer listed for sale new anywhere that I could find.

Your examples are inappropriate (A40s) and outdated/obsolete.

Please look through the examples of modern headsets available today and find something.

This is a good start: http://www.headphone.com/headphones/headset.php?sort=value&dir=DESC

Scroll through that list. You will notice that everything with a microphone on it is either Bluetooth or the Apple standard.

Your use case is the exception not the rule.

The headphone jack/mic combo should be wired the Apple way as 'standard' for greatest compatibility with practically every headsets available now.

If we want to pay homage to the 'way it should have been' and allow for your obsolete exception, then the best way to do so is with a physical or software switch to swap the ground and mic leads to allow for it.

A quick note - your seeming constant need to insult people isn't helping your case.
 
Nope. Not wrong. Yes I did my research. The A40s are giant cans for PC gaming. They are not appropriate for phone call use on a portable device. You could probably make them work in a pinch, but you'd look like a moron.
No, you didn't. You claimed that the A40s used separate mic and headphone jacks and needed an adaptor to be used with the headset jack. That is a complete falsehood. I doubt you would lie about this feature, since it can only blow up in your face when someone points out the lie. So then the only other reason you could have said that is because you didn't do enough research.

Also, there are still plenty of people who wear what you call "cans" on the go. It's healthier for your ears, and also allows for better sound quality. I have a friend who even has a pair of headphones that doubles as earmuffs for cold weather.

Please show me where to buy those little in-ear headsets with mic that you showed. The last review I could find on them was from 2011. They are no longer listed for sale new anywhere that I could find.

Your examples are inappropriate (A40s) and outdated/obsolete.
The headphones, as I stated above, are not inappropriate. You are just saying they aren't because you don't wear headphones outside.

Also, Headsets aren't things you upgrade like laptops. You tend to use them until they die. So the cutoff for outdated is a little bit more than 3 years. Not to mention, A quick search found me reviews from 2012, which means the headset has not even been out of the market for 2 years yet. (Here's a link to one of the reviews I found: http://gotgame.com/2012/06/25/astro-astar-in-ear-headset-review/)

A quick note - your seeming constant need to insult people isn't helping your case.
I didn't constantly insult you. I called you out on trying to pass fiction as fact. Trust me, I had to change my post before I submitted so that I wasn't insulting you, because I was tempted considering how blatantly wrong the things you were saying about the Astro headsets were.

-God Ginrai
 
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Can't you two just agree that I'm wrong and call it at that?
 
Note: Either way headphones without microphones will still work like 'normal'.
 
I don't think that is always true.
Sure it is. In the case of headphones without microphones, both the mic and ground contacts in the jack rest on the sleeve (ground) of the 3 connector plug.


The 3 connector and 4 connector plugs are the same length. The 4th connector is obtained by splitting the ground sleeve of a 3 connector plug/jack into two contact patches.
I have earphones without mic that don't work properly on my Pandoras (iirc I get only mono sound). They are supposed to be fancy noise-cancelling earphones, I got them with my Sony Vaio P, I wouldn't be surprised if they do something dodgy and non-standard.

Anyway, I think it would be best to be pragmatic here. We need to support at least the standard (like on the Pandora), and if possible the Apple way too. What about just having two jacks instead of one? No mechanical or electronic switches, just two different jacks. One could be where the Pandora jack is, and the other could be on the side. Having a jack on the side helps if you use the Pyra as a portable music player (with a jack on the front it's not pocketable anymore). Having two jacks is also useful when you're using the device with two people, e.g. when watching a movie on the train/plane.

Just the standard + selling an adapter (which would also be useful for the Pandora) is good enough for me. But I wouldn't mind having a way to make both work without adapter. In this case, a pragmatic solution is better than sticking to a pedantic principled position. None of the two "standards" are inherently superior or inferior. It's a pity that there are different de facto standards. There's not much we can do about that though.
 
Two jacks, while possible, uses more space. Im all for it if some space can be found for it.

Maybe the mic could have  a switch for balanced operation               /runs
 
Two jacks, while possible, uses more space. Im all for it if some space can be found for it.


Maybe the mic could have  a switch for balanced operation               /runs
You're aware your latter suggestion is what was discussed here? I think? In theory, before they derailed into petty arguments?


And, as much as I dislike it, probably it's the right decision to put a switch in there.


(we could include an insulting informational pop up when you insert Apple headsets, though)
 
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I prefer _wb_'s suggestion. If we have to support the Apple way inside the product rather than from the outside, we should be providing 2 jacks, so that we don't introduce a new point of failure with the switch.

I still think offering the adaptor is the best course of action, though.

-God Ginrai
 
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I prefer _wb_'s suggestion. If we have to support the Apple way inside the product rather than from the outside, we should be providing 2 jacks, so that we don't introduce a new point of failure with the switch.


I still think offering the adaptor is the best course of action, though.

-God Ginrai
Nonsense. Sorry. How would a solid state (software) switch fail? I haven't looked it up, but I'm pretty sure you can get such a switch for cents. It would eat a little board space, but less than two jacks and it's just generally less ugly than two mechanically identical jacks each supporting another overlapping standard.
 
Having to slightly different jacks sounds totally geeky to me. I like it :)
 
I prefer _wb_'s suggestion. If we have to support the Apple way inside the product rather than from the outside, we should be providing 2 jacks, so that we don't introduce a new point of failure with the switch.

I still think offering the adaptor is the best course of action, though.

-God Ginrai
Nonsense. Sorry. How would a solid state (software) switch fail? I haven't looked it up, but I'm pretty sure you can get such a switch for cents. It would eat a little board space, but less than two jacks and it's just generally less ugly than two mechanically identical jacks each supporting another overlapping standard.
You're contradicting yourself. Software would have no physical presence on the board. The switch that was discussed in this topic is a hardware switch, and as such is subject to failure.

-God Ginrai
 
You're contradicting yourself. Software would have no physical presence on the board. The switch that was discussed in this topic is a hardware switch, and as such is subject to failure.
Unless the SOC provides a way to switch the function of the relevant mic and ground pins (which seems unlikely)  there would still need to be an physical switch somewhere on the board to do the actual work.

No, just no to two different jacks.
Two words...   support nightmare...

- Neelix
 
I prefer _wb_'s suggestion. If we have to support the Apple way inside the product rather than from the outside, we should be providing 2 jacks, so that we don't introduce a new point of failure with the switch.


I still think offering the adaptor is the best course of action, though.

-God Ginrai
Nonsense. Sorry. How would a solid state (software) switch fail? I haven't looked it up, but I'm pretty sure you can get such a switch for cents. It would eat a little board space, but less than two jacks and it's just generally less ugly than two mechanically identical jacks each supporting another overlapping standard.
You're contradicting yourself. Software would have no physical presence on the board. The switch that was discussed in this topic is a hardware switch, and as such is subject to failure.

-God Ginrai
No, you are interpreting it in a contradicting way. I left out a "controlled" because it would have destroyed that nice alliteration, I thought it was comprehensible without that word too.

And of course a transistor can fail. There are billions of them in the SoC. A few more or less don't matter.
 
Someone could tell me that pigs fly and I'm not going to believe them until they show me a flying pig. The only thing that was proven not to fit was the normal mount, not the side mount. That's when people got out their measuring devices, and proved to me that a normal Pandora was thinner than my Pandora that had had its battery expand. After that, I dropped the subject of the normal mount, because they had proven to me that it would not fit.

...

While I still stand by my beliefs, they do not pertain to this topic in the least, and this will draw us off on tangents. Even if you were to prove to me now that it actually is mechanically problematic, it would only waste space in this topic and wouldn't even matter since the USB issue has already been decided. I've dropped this issue, and it's best you do too.
But the pig was already flying above your head at that point, what else do you want ? Should it land and your shoulders grab you and fly away with you ?As said before even the side mount would only give you 2mm, so it won't fit either (and there is still the question if side mountable receptables are available). And I don't know how your specific case of a expanded Pandora could have any impact on that. I'm not even sure how this should work out, the battery is in a seperate compartment, with a rather weak lid over it. My battery expands a little from time to time, but it only presses the lid a little outward/off the rest of the case, the case part alone stays the same.

You seem obsessed with trying to use arguments I've made about unrelated topics as weapons against me. While, once again, the argument does not pertain to the topic at hand.
The whole point of me bringing these things up (again) is that you proclaim to follow the agenda "durability is one of the top priorities" which you actually don't follow very often. And I find it very odd that this is so important for you in a rather insignificant case, where I suggest implementing it, only if adds little complexity to the device (both production and support). And thats the only real argument you have here: adding built in ability to switch between both worlds would increase the number of points were a Pyra could brake.

I will entertain your argument about eMMC and microSD. The microSD issue is exactly a case of durability. If your eMMC dies, you can't replace it. Hence why using microSD makes the device more durable, or user-serviceable. If your microSD dies, all you have to do is buy a new one and replace it. I also use the arguments of versatility and price to try to convince the largest amount of people I can by showing the other benefits that choosing this safer option provides.
I know that flash technology has a relativly short lifespan (in comparison to other permanent storage technologies), but is this really a problem related to the "lifespan" of the Pyra ? Maybe it is just out of my personal experience, but it don't see that much flash memory based technology fail (in big scales). I can still use my 128MB USB Stick and a 2GB Sandisk SD/USB Combo card (both at least 8-10 years, and the latter one served as system disk in a Seagate dockstar for a little while), my now 5 year old SSD, a friend of mine uses a 16GB Compact flash card as system disk for his IBM x40 for more than 7 years now and we have still mobile phones in the company with whopping 512MB user memory (which is written to at least on a daily basis because of some horrible custom tool to bind them into my companies IT infrastructure), that are too breaking the 5 year "barrier" (with usually things like keys, microphones and speakers failing), etc.That doesn't mean that flash memory won't fail (wear leveling and related techs all have their limits) + as in every other component the Pyra will have built in, there is some inherent chance, that it will fail. But due to that experience I think it is much more likely that the Pyras internal mSD-Slot will be damaged due to Error 40 (= the real error sits about 40cm away from the actual place where the error "occurs", usually the display).

I'm not even understanding what you are trying to say with this remark... :\
Just an assumption of the likelyhood of usage that the components manufacturer makes: Sim/mSD Combo, sits inside the device and is probably not often utilized by the users during the products lifespan (an assumption that can be wrong, as sleashjag pointed out). An (Full sized) SD-Slot for example is exposed to the user, deemed to be used very often. Thus the manufactuer needs to make sure that it does not brake very easy: more robust construction, more durable materials. And looking at the support forum/system, SD-Slot support cases aren't massive, but they popup regulary > the manufacturers can't work wonders, there is a limit in materials that can be used to due costs, there is a limit of robustness due to size constrainst and materials used.
Maybe you didn't phrase your question right. I don't know, because providing me those 2 things only makes me more confused about what it was you were asking.
The original question was: "were is the difference between offering and adaptor and including some sort of switching mechanism in terms of "giving in". I don't see any, as both options in the end won't change the customers buying patterns regarding headset and similar devices.
I'm not here to argue these organizations' effects on innovation. There's a lot of things that look good on the heads side and look bad on the tails side, (like the patent system) and if we started arguing about that, the Pyra would be shipping before we were done discussing it.
No, but I'm am here to question your definition of "standards" in the IT industry - at least that was one of your points: "apple crap" is not standard. Which I deem not right, as I think the only difference between those implementations is that one came earlier than the other. And so far you were not very convincing, but then again I'm stubborn.
Whether it is forced or not. In this case, Apple forced their version by purposefully breaking compatibility. ...
And the market accepted it in the long term, while this sure isn't very comforting its how the industry works for a long time now. And while these has a lot of negative effects (like USB vs. Firewire) its also one thing that keeps things going.
Would you feel the same way about this issue if we were instead talking about changing our microUSB port in some way due to the fact that Apple had taken the microUSB connecter and switched the pinout?
If a not insignicant part of the market would have accepted it and a solution could be found that is cheap and reliable to implement, yes I would do that if it prevents possible customers to buy an adaptor.
I never suggested the switch solution. I have always advocated the adaptor that can be sold separately. I believe the switch solution was proposed by Grench, but I'm too lazy to go check for sure. Grench can always correct me if I wrongly attributed it to him.
Apology, as you intruced it into "our part" of the discussion, I mixed that up - will be more carefull next time.
 
So... a transistor switch is a point of failure now?

A physical switch is a point of failure too?

Every key on the keyboard is a switching mechanism.

The lid open/closed switch.

Within EVERY headphone modern jack is a switch too that states that a set of headphones has been inserted.

The 'durability' and 'adds a point of failure' arguments are moot. 100% meaningless drivel.

The reality is that this device needs to support common headphones with mic that a normal person could/would buy in a retail store or online and simply -work-.

The vast majority of these headsets are on the 'Apple standard' whether we like it or not. The 'real standard' appears to be a very rare exception - if available at all today - which is doubtful.

The reality of consumer headset availability states that we MUST use the 'Apple Standard' as the default - simply so the device will WORK.

The real question here is whether or not to include a switch, mechanical or electronic, to allow the unicorn 'real standard' headsets to work without an adapter.

The, 'Everyone MUST use an adapter because Apple sucks!' argument is moot. Why? Because we would ALL have to use adapters to use any commercially available headsets that we would actually WANT to use.
 
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@Grench I don't believe that headsets following the old standard are anywhere near as rare as you claim.  Mark my words,  If we don't support both versions there *will*  be people coming on the boards complaining that the audio is broken, whichever side of the argument we end up on.

- Neelix
 
@Grench I don't believe that headsets following the old standard are anywhere near as rare as you claim.  Mark my words,  If we don't support both versions there *will*  be people coming on the boards complaining that the audio is broken, whichever side of the argument we end up on.

- Neelix
Please, find a name brand portable headset (with mic) that is currently available that follows the old standard. It's VERY hard to do.

I agree that a mechanical or electronic switch should be included to allow the 'old standard' headsets - should anyone stumble on them.

For support issues - which is better? To have 99% of them work and 1% complain or the reverse?

Better still is to simply put in a switch. We're only flipping 2 lines here - it is not difficult. It is not an 'additional point of failure'.

Having the ability to use -any- headset is a very nice sales feature to have. Freedom of choice in what software the end user wants to run has always been a standard of the community. Freedom of headset hardware isn't that big of a stretch.
 
Please, find a name brand portable headset (with mic) that is currently available that follows the old standard. It's VERY hard to do.
Finding out which standard a headset follows can be rather difficult without trying it out, as headset makers don't tend to advertise the pinout.  That alone is enough reason for me to doubt any claims of the pervasiveness of either type.

I do agree that the Apple compatible ones will only become more pervasive over time though.

Better still is to simply put in a switch. We're only flipping 2 lines here - it is not difficult. It is not an 'additional point of failure'.

Having the ability to use -any- headset is a very nice sales feature to have. Freedom of choice in what software the end user wants to run has always been a standard of the community. Freedom of headset hardware isn't that big of a stretch.
Agreed.

- Neelix
 
£15.90 a month is the cheapest, I think. The plans here called 'The One Plan' or the 'Ultimate Internet Plan'. These are SIM only, and you can use all the data you want, truly no cap, and I recently had no home broadband so abused it with all my stuff connected to it over wifi :) http://store.three.c...ice_Pay_Monthly I pay around £30 a month for my plan, which gives me more minutes and text, but that was because I bought into a 2 year contract when I got my phone.
That would be the ultimate dream to come true.

I should add, that to get their 3.9G connection, you do need a compatible device. My phone the HTC One is. They call it their 'Ultrafast' network, and most the new phones are Ultrafast ready, like the HTCOne, the S4 etc...
That brings up the question: What's the Pyra 3G module capable of?

My Nokia E90 communicator has 3.75G HSDPA speed.

Does the Pyra module reach 7,2 Mbit/s?

Or is capable of more?
Here are the specs for the chosen PHS8 (PLS8 for the future):

http://m2m.gemalto.com/tl_files/cinterion/downloads/datasheets/gemalto_datasheet_PHS8_web.pdf

http://m2m.gemalto.com/tl_files/cinterion/downloads/datasheets/gemalto_datasheet_PLS8_web.pdf

There are slightly different variants for the Americas, EU/Africa/Asia and Japan/Korea so we will have to pick some of all potential options (because that is difficult for production planning and stock management).

And yes, we will buy the "voice" license (it is more a patent issue than a technical) to have voice calls through headset or bluetooth. It is not planned to have a phone earpiece (placing the Pyra to your ear).
Or get the PHS8-P with five bands UMTS for true global roaming.
 
Please, find a name brand portable headset (with mic) that is currently available that follows the old standard. It's VERY hard to do.
 Finding out which standard a headset follows can be rather difficult without trying it out, as headset makers don't tend to advertise the pinout.  That alone is enough reason for me to doubt any claims of the pervasiveness of either type.

I do agree that the Apple compatible ones will only become more pervasive over time though.

Better still is to simply put in a switch. We're only flipping 2 lines here - it is not difficult. It is not an 'additional point of failure'.

Having the ability to use -any- headset is a very nice sales feature to have. Freedom of choice in what software the end user wants to run has always been a standard of the community. Freedom of headset hardware isn't that big of a stretch.
 Agreed.

- Neelix
Scan through this list and see what the ratio is of advertised as Apple style headphones and those that don't make a claim to it: http://www.headphone.com/headphones/headset.php?sort=value&dir=DESC

Simple counting on my fingers shows it's more or less 10:1 Apple:Unstated on the top line.

Headsets following the 'normal' standard would be even rarer finds.

If we don't have a switch, the default port should be configured to the dominantly available products (Apple style).

Adding a switch simply makes the whole argument moot and adds a sales point.
 
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