Still Believe In Craig & Ed Despite The Recent Revalations


As a late pre-order customer between 2000-2300 or something to that effect, I'm thankful for this initiative and glad that it'll mean I get my Pandora sooner.

As for people who are "skipping the queue", they're paying more and phase me no more than the other pre-order customers who are getting their Pandora before me.

Ultimately, every new Pandora owner is a good thing. Every existing pre-order customer who opts to give OpenPandora more money to "upgrade" is a good thing for the rest of us. And, if you think about it, someone with the bank to put $500 down on a Pandora just like that, is probably going to be someone we'd appreciate in the community, rather than a whiney pre-pubescent pain in the ass. (no particular offence meant if you're pre-pubescent and not whiney)
 
WoD said:
As a late pre-order customer between 2000-2300 or something to that effect, I'm thankful for this initiative and glad that it'll mean I get my Pandora sooner.
Yeah it will speed things up for you no doubt.

For people left in the first 2000 though it's more likely to slow them down (or at the best break even).They will see the least amount of improvement even though they are the ones that have been waiting the longest.
 
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Tripmonkey_uk said:
WoD said:
As a late pre-order customer between 2000-2300 or something to that effect, I'm thankful for this initiative and glad that it'll mean I get my Pandora sooner.
Yeah it will speed things up for you no doubt.

For people left in the first 2000 though it's more likely to slow them down (or at the best break even).They will see the least amount of improvement even though they are the ones that have been waiting the longest.

I can't see how that can be the case. The most anyone can be delayed is 100 units, if they hold to the numbers and don't simply let thousands of people order an "instant Pandora."

What logic/evidence have you assessed to arrive at this conclusion? I haven't really been paying enough attention to the production process to work it out for myself.
 
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It was quite clever of Craig to announce a future price increase with the $500 Premium Pandora Edition. Any upset pre-order customer will think twice before canceling otherwise if they decide they want to buy back in later they will have to pay more. Craig has really thought this out extremely well.
 
DisgruntleElf said:
It was quite clever of Craig to announce a future price increase with the $500 Premium Pandora Edition. Any upset pre-order customer will think twice before canceling otherwise if they decide they want to buy back in later they will have to pay more. Craig has really thought this out extremely well.

I think you'll find that this was a lucky benefit of an otherwise necessary price increase. I don't think he cleverly planned to lock pre-order customers in with the psychological barrier of a higher price.

On the flip side of the coin, pre-order customers can receive their Pandora, and then immediately eBay it at a profit. You know what they say: always look on the bright side of life!

But you're right about thinking twice. There's really no sane reason to abandon a pre-order at this point, unless your dying spouse needs the money for a new heart.
 
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DisgruntleElf said:
It was quite clever of Craig to announce a future price increase with the $500 Premium Pandora Edition. Any upset pre-order customer will think twice before canceling otherwise if they decide they want to buy back in later they will have to pay more. Craig has really thought this out extremely well.
Exactly OpenPandora win each way. Just a shame that they have lost their integrity in the process though. This could put a lot of people off buying from them in the future :(

@WoD: You've just said it yourself. Those 100 units had to come from somewhere, yet OpenPandora keep saying that there will be no slow down for anybody. How's that possible?
 
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well I will certainly wait it out I've been waiting for over 2 years and can wait a little longer.

I feel some of the conspiracy theories are completely over the top! Looks the guys need the money and if this "premium" scheme gets them the money they need so that they don't shut down and I still get my Pandora, then I'm okay with that.
 
Tripmonkey_uk said:
@WoD: You've just said it yourself. Those 100 units had to come from somewhere, yet OpenPandora keep saying that there will be no slow down for anybody. How's that possible?

Consider the two following scenarios, showing Pandora output over 5 days before and after (number of staff picked arbitrarily for the number is irrelevant):

3 staff: 75, 75, 75, 75, 75 - 0 instant pandoras = 375 total

6 staff: 140, 140, 140, 140, 140 - 100 instant pandoras = 600 total

That's 160% units shipped to pre-order customers, assuming all other factors- parts/replacements/failures etc are equal.

The whole point of the exercise is, of course, to hire more staff. I'm going to guess OpenPandora will have done that already, otherwise you're quite correct- a couple of hundred pre-order places could possibly be delayed where they otherwise would not have been.

Edit: Also, this probably doesn't apply to anyone getting their Pandora shipped this week anyway. For currently processing pre-orders to have been sped up, they would need to be shipped...well... in the past. Unfortunately for those currently on the cusp of getting their Pandora, time travel is not possible. You can call this "break even" if you like.
 
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EvilDragon said:
Tripmonkey_uk said:
Those boards were built for and paid for by the people who pre-ordered over 2 years ago. Taking them without the permission of those people is stealing.

Well, Craig also invested half a million into the whole Pandora project from his private money.
Each Pandora did cost more than 400 USD per unit (thanks to stupid things like broken nubs, etc. that happened).
Also, part and production was higher as planned - and at the very beginning, we told you that you are only paying for the parts and production for YOUR unit.
As it turned out to be more expensive, should we also ask for the additional money from you?

We can either continue to build the units as we are right now - with a small team to assemble and boards stockpiling (as they can't build them fast enough) or hire more guys and NOT stockpile the PCBs but rather ship out the units faster. However, that won't work without money, as those guys want to be paid. And stockpiling those boards will slow down everything later on.

I perfectly know this is not the best situation we're all in here - but try to see it like this:

* You get the unit for 200 USD less than it did cost - and that is NOT including all the time and money we invested in the development. We are paying half of your unit.
* You can easily get a full refund if you want and are not happy with that
* You do NOT have to pay more to get the unit! Future batches HAVE to be more expensive than the initial 250 USD, the production cost is MUCH higher.

So yeah, it does not delay you getting your unit. We got the parts for Batch 2 already, so what we're shipping here is basically part for batch 2 which is only possible for a higher amount of money which enables us to hire workers.

If we don't do this, the boards would keep piling in UK and you wouldn't get them any faster, but Batch 2 would be delayed.
First off, I'm not sure what someone here has or has not read over 2 years, nor do I care(just kidding :p )! My statments was mainly in regards to the higher premium units, and how some are happpy, and many or not, but the team has gone forward, and coddling babies only gets you so far. This topic has been discussed at great lenths over just the last few days, and if someone hasn't read MAJOR news over a few days that is plastered eveywhere, I wouldn't say you follow this project much, and in turn shouldn't really have a problem one way or another.

In regards to how much the team has invested. COMMON SENSE people, do you think a device like this falls from the heavens and just appears for a 20-50,000 dollar investment? Even if you didn't know Craig spent half a million, that means squat! All we need to know is that all 4 key members have their entire life savings tide up in this project. If that was 10 grand or 10 million, it has reached close to ROCK BOTTOM to bring this project to this community. Yes, the majority of customers made a 300-400 dollar investment over 2 years ago, and at the current econimic situation around the world you all would have seen a negative return if you had invested that money elsewhere. I doubt anyone here's life savings, is 330 dollars, and even if it is, you are looking at a good return considering the current units cost more than what you paid, so really what is the problem?

I thought the investment idea was a good idea, but realistically, how would that work out? The community is in an uproar over a 330 dollar investment over 2 years. How do you think 100 users who invested 1000 dollars a piece would react over time? The current solution is the best in my personal opinion, and leaves 100% control with the team, where it should be.

I'm not really upset that members seem dark on some topics, but for the first time EVER, units are shipping on a regular basis, and they actually work as intendend. That is reason enough to say "Hey, these guys solve their problems, and are now moving forward". :lol: Be happy! Ed has always been the voice of reason around here, and he has taken his fair share of lumps due to this fact, and when I see him put his heart on his sleeve and give way more info than he may or may not need to, it does get upsetting, because sadly, it doesn't change most opinions, and he just wasted time, effort, and sleep that could have been used elsewhere. I don't know how many members here have worked a 12-16+ hour work day before(I have, and it's not fun), but a few minutes here and there, makes a world of differance. But that is something else that falls on deaf ears around here. You all hear about Ed, and Craig being sick, but do you think their health improves working all day, sun up to sun up, and not getting rest. No, it happens when rest happens, which for these guys that doesn't happen often.

Craig has made more post and answered more questions in the last week, than he has in my entire time following the Pandora project, if that isn't cause to see things have turned around, NOTHING IS!

Chris
 
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@WoD - All them numbers means absolutely nothing because they are based on the fact that OpenPandora will have a steady flow of boards from now until the project ends. Any break in that flow fucks it up completely. After the trouble that they have had with parts in the past, do you really think that they can make a promise like that?

@Jumpman - Units are shipping at a constant rate because all the nubs have arrived at the board factory, which means that the factory can carry on with the building of boards. You make it sound like the boards have started to flow because they did what they did.

I really don't see what money from the devs has to do with this either. If the people hadn't have backed them by pre-ordering in the first place then they wouldn't be Pandoras out there now either. It was the developers choice to do things the way that they have, nobody was forcing them at any point. They had all the information and knew fair well what they were getting themselves into.
On the other hand they lied and used misinformation to get people to pre-pay and fund the project. How can you make out like that is in any way right?
 
Tripmonkey_uk said:
@WoD - All them numbers means absolutely nothing because they are based on the fact that OpenPandora will have a steady flow of boards from now until the project ends. Any break in that flow fucks it up completely. After the trouble that they have had with parts in the past, do you really think that they can make a promise like that?

Have faith. The guys don't set out to fail intentionally or maliciously. Units are shipping, Craig has seen a surplus of assembly work and thus has come up with this plan to scale up production.

Sure, it could fail hard... but there's no need to be so pessimistic about it. The plan was conceived with the best of intentions.
 
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WoD said:
Have faith. The guys don't set out to fail intentionally or maliciously. Units are shipping, Craig has seen a surplus of assembly work and thus has come up with this plan to scale up production.
Faith is for religions not projects. I might have had trust in the developers to do the right thing but that has completely gone now.

RenegadeChic said:
i'd offer you a tissue, but i don't respect your tears
Really, your going to add that to the conversation? I'm disappointed.

I tell you what, I'll do everybody a favour and shut my mouth about this once and for all if Craig or ED will answer these following questions..
Tripmonkey_uk said:
Why didn't you make it an official announcement and offer the upgrade to pre-orderers first?

why didn't you ask people from the community to come and help build the units again?

Why didn't you use the dev fund if you needed money and pay back into it later on?
 
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Wow a lot of anger here?

Well.. everyone is allowed to vent, crying wont change anything. I think the guys made a good move, its a small venture for us geeks who have no other option out there outside of lugging a netbook in our pocket. When we pre-ordered we knew this was a not a big company, yet a small venture trying to create something we all dreamed about? If they have to make decisions to help the project and change things a bit, its understandable.. they are not a mass producing big company, a few people trying to accomplish something.

That being said... I am happy they did it, brings in more cash, gets the Pandoras out... I believe in them, as do many others here. So vent and cry all you want, just be happy when you get your pandora & enjoy gaming, I will!
 
I appreciate the creative efforts of the team to find funding to speed up the production.

What I don't like is the following:

It's hard to find out how many devices will be sold for $500 within 7 days. Was this number fixed anywhere? I also couldn't figure when the 7 day order period started or stopped and for what reason: sold out??? 7 days over???
The link to the order page is dead.

If the project wants to regain any credibility that was lost by bad communication policy or habit or manners, someone of OP team better defines right now:

- how many devices were sold for $500 and at what date?
- for how many of those devices the $500 were received by OP?
- how many of those paid devices are shipped as of today?

Before I hear of any of the happy $500-customers here in the forums, I have to believe this "7 day and you get what you paid for" is yet another smokescreen for missestimated production complexities.

grobi
 
Tripmonkey_uk said:
I tell you what, I'll do everybody a favour and shut my mouth about this once and for all if Craig or ED will answer these following questions..
Tripmonkey_uk said:
Why didn't you make it an official announcement and offer the upgrade to pre-orderers first?

why didn't you ask people from the community to come and help build the units again?

Why didn't you use the dev fund if you needed money and pay back into it later on?

ah why not

1) I would say this was because drawing mass attention to an already likely to be unpopular idea would have driven more volume to the venture and genuinely stood the chance of stalling the people already in the queue in an absolutely unstable manner. Instead it was a small thing for the people who were lucky enough to see it. Why wasn't it offered to the pre-orderers first... i dunno, but who would want to pay extra when they have waited all this time for something a few weeks sooner? Has anyone with an existing pre-order tried offering more money for something sooner?

2) I got the impression that they wanted a consistent and reliable force of people who they could train to pump out units at a good rate. There were many many flaws with the first batches of units sent out when there were volunteers and honestly, I am not pointing fingers, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that some people under performed. Also, it is better to be able to hire someone indefinitely rather than rely on someone to have a few days or weeks free time to be trained to throw together some units.

3) I honestly don't know what they have done with it, I am sure someone will say but either it has been used on the project already or they are holding onto it for the non hardware related dev work it was intended for. I got the impression it was the latter, and if thats the case there is the integrity, but if its needed to save the project then the former really doesn't bother me.




It is funny you speak of faith as being for religions because The Right Thing is equally an abstract concept and entirely subject to individual bias. What is right in your eyes is not necessarily the same as what is right in everyone else's. The actions of the OP team and the various opinions in this thread show that. There is no right thing, just opinion, things that happen and motives behind it. Whether it is right or wrong will be down to every individual's interpretation.


EDIT - oops i didnt read that you wanted craig or ED to answer rather than me. ah well. craig cant post here anyway
 
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Have to say that yesterday Tripmonkey_uk made some unfounded illogical comments however today, they are mostly well thought out and difficult to argue against (although people do).

......we are still in the dark as to how may boards CC are sending Craig every week (on average will do) - the 1000 per month, 250 a week that Ed did mention a while ago would blow the we cannot keep up to the boards issue Craig mentioned out of the water.

Craig must therefore be getting more than 350 boards a week from CC (3 people make 70/day * 5 = 350/week assembled) - if that is the case then the figures do add up but as per usual no one says anything and everything blows up - some of us are not stupid and know these figures make no sense with the available information.

Craig or ED just tell the community how many boards CC are sending - that way what you are saying regarding the queue jumpers does add up and benefits not only OPT but us as well - so everyone will be happish!

The queue jumpers are obviously a big thing to all of us even though most of us understand the business need surrounding the need for them.

........and we should have been given first refusal at upgrading to 7 days guaranteed although I know this may have been a logistical nightmare (but surely there is an Excel spreadsheet with everyones queue position, email address etc) - I manipulate/convert data as my day job and its not difficult once its in that type of format.
 
bottom line:

-- >70% of pre-orderers would NOT have opted in for a 7-day upgrade because about that many pre-orderers complained about ANYBODY investing any more money in the project at all points that the investment suggestions came in.

-- If ANYBODY understands math on an algebraic level, more workers means exponential increase in production of ANYTHING. Can mean must more horsepower flat out, or a more efficient workforce (as was mentioned before by switching from 1-person/1-pandora to an assembly line method). Prove it yourself, carry buckets of water from one place to another with 3 people carrying back and forth then get 5 or 6 people and make a line passing the buckets from one end to the other... less work, more product. Scientific truth!

-- People produce better quality when paid for their time vs volunteering. Unless you truly love what you're giving your time away for and can easily pay your own bills at the end of the day, it DOES effect individual moral as well as group moral... ESPECIALLY if you're working for free next to even ONE PERSON getting paid for their time. It's HUMAN NATURE. Scientific and sociological truth!

-- Profit is necessary for a business to survive, like food is necessary for a body to survive. If I use all my energy up and don't eat, I'll die. If they spend all their money up, the company will die... Simple math!

-- They are human, they have obviously made bad decisions as a business in the past, and we can argue semantics about that till the end of time, but it's the past, get over it... Scientific truth!

-- YOU WANT YOUR PANDORA!!! Contrary to non-popular belief, the majority of their efforts have been for advancement of the project and to get people their product (obviously without losing their shirt... not ONE OPT member is related to or an incarnation of Ghandi, though ED seems to come pretty close, but don't expect them to give up their livelihood so you can play some freaking games! Obvious truth!

-- If you DON'T want your pandora, leave! Not to sound cold-hearted, but it's pointless to complain about all of this beyond voicing your opinion/feelings once or twice unless you're here to cause unnecessary drama. No one has killed your closest of kin, no one has burned down your house and raped your mother... so why attempt to sink the ship and take people with you? This is not your first born child. If anything, OPT can see it like that more than you ever will (you being ANY purchaser pre-order, craigslist, ebay or otherwise) because they have made sacrifices beyond your ability, comprehension or willingness to believe because you are NOT in their shoes and YOU are not the one running this shop. If you can do a better job, go build a competitive device. Business truth!

-- Unless I actually care, I probably won't back up any of my statements beyond what I have already said. Note my earlier statement of really only needing to state a standpoint or feeling once or twice. Anything beyond that is pointless unless the whole of the group is interested in an honest and straight-forward debate that will create a better outcome in the end. I can guarantee a good portion of statements directed at me will be attempts to spark a flame... and unless I actually care to play with fire, I won't honor your attempt with a response. So take that into consideration before you even bother to disprove me or "take me down a peg". Unless you speak a different language, I've been called everything in the book at least 3 times in my life to this point. Especially when I see no reason to keep a fight going other than the participants just wanting to fight. Things shift from productive to primal, and that's de-evolutionary. I evolve in one direction, forward... how about you? Think of me what you will, but I felt the need to summarize the bottom line of this entire scenario and I have no regrets for the way I worded it. Some of you just need a light slap in the face to realize you're over-reacting or jumping to bad conclusions for the sake of jumping to bad conclusions. For some of you, it's just how you operate... you don't know any better. Regardless of how valid your points are. If you are mugged by somebody with a knife, it's fine to protect yourself. If you disarm that mugger, that's fine... it's over. If you disable that mugger, that's a bit excessive, but you make sure you're safe. If you kill that mugger, you've gone way beyond the efforts necessary to survive. A LOT of people here go beyond the necessary effort to speak your peace. Some of you will never be satisfied, no matter what happens. And I accept that, which is why I will probably not defend myself against a good number of you who flame back at me. I will choose not to condone your despotism. And that's my choice. I am strong enough to accept that... are you?

bottom line "rant(?)" over! :p

oh, before I forget. As far as those who fight back no matter what, like Tripmonkey. The best way to deal with them is to just let them speak their peace and give little to no response. I can tell that there is no winning or settling with this particular person... and they only seem to speak when they are out for blood. You may dislike me for pointing this out or see it as an attack, but I see it as an obvious truth. For every person who responds to you kindly, angrily, logically or scientifically, you just get pissed and attempt a shouting match... which negates your valid points because by the time you get to what's valid, most don't care to hear it anymore, and your argument is killed before it even gets a chance to live. This is an opinion based on my observation of you and your posts (in general, not just here) and you are not the only one who does so, just the main one in this thread... so don't take it as a personal attack (unless you focus on being categorized, but even then, I doubt I'll engage in a battle of wits with you)...
 
ah... and about the queue position thing. The likelihood of their being a clear and concise list anywhere is probably very slim. It wasn't clearly set back at the beginning, so they'd be lying to you if the threw one together now just to appease the masses. It would be fairly inaccurate and people would get skipped or jump the list whether you knew it or not. If nothing else, the team may have changed that after a point (possibly with batch 2) and have things more organized and detailed with proper queue data, but probably not before that since batch 1 sold so quickly and the info was spread across so many places before things became more stable. So you all may be asking for something that is not obtainable for the batch 1 people (which I am included in and was told I was around 1750 - 1850 a good while ago). Don't think I'm saying this from an outside perspective, I just think it's generally unimportant. Simple reason why... if they officially announced that they were done with batch 1 orders and are now sending batch 2 out and you still haven't gotten your email, THAT'S when it matters! Doesn't make a difference where you are in the queue as long as you're still IN the queue. :D Simple truth! Oh, another reason it doesn't matter, location. If I'm ahead of you in the queue and live farther away from them than you, I will get my unit after you. So imagine if 100 people live closer than I do... most of them will get theirs before me... so what. Until they say "we quit and you can't have your money back" it's no big deal with me. This is small business on a global scale... not big business on a global scale. Granted, Sony wouldn't put up with as much of this as they have. Just sayin. (and I know THAT last statement seems like flame bait. It's not. If you believe Sony is nicer than that, read about the court proceedings they have with the guy who broke their hardware security... (real nice bunch of folks, those Sony guys :p)
 
Custom Processing Unlimite said:
bottom line:

-- If ANYBODY understands math on an algebraic level, more workers means exponential increase in production of ANYTHING. Can mean must more horsepower flat out, or a more efficient workforce (as was mentioned before by switching from 1-person/1-pandora to an assembly line method). Prove it yourself, carry buckets of water from one place to another with 3 people carrying back and forth then get 5 or 6 people and make a line passing the buckets from one end to the other... less work, more product. Scientific truth!

...but if 350 units per week can be assembled with 3 people and only 250 boards are available then no matter how many people you have the limit is 250 units a week. Does not matter that they can be assembled that weeks units in 1 day as what do they do for other 4! (iro building Pandoras and not Icontrolpads as we are on about Pandora production only).

Honestly that statement was way off the mark - down to Craig and or ED to confirm they are getting more than 350 boards a week from CC.
 
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