What should be included in the firmware?


So we aggree, that some browser, some media player, java, midi, synaptic and one nice looking but basic desktop environment would be good to have from the start for most customers? Would only have to aggree on which ones then and if they should be shipped or installable via simple script in form of what Askarus mentioned again in the last post.
For me it's very important to make it user friendly for new users.

It's my experience from Gamescom and FOSDEM.

There are always some people who ask for easy package management and somehow "fear" the Linux setup.

It's good to offer some stuff right after startup for new users to use the system without needing to mess around with synaptic package management.

Imagine you're new to Linux (really new) and don't know any package, the synaptic won't help any further.

You can look for media player but will get so many results that you'll be confused at first.

It's not like on Pandora.

In the Pandora repo you don't have thousands of packages.

You have about 10 Media players and 5-10 browsers.

You can test all of them.

Debian's weakness for new users is that there are so many packages to get lost.

My suggestion:

Make an installer script which gives different options:

1: Install media suit

2: Install Office suit

3: Install Graphic suit

4: Install Network suit

5: Install whateveryoulikerandomstuff

I think everyone can set up an internet connection via network manager and launch the script.

Alternative:

Also we could ship all those packages as we have enough space on the NAND.

The user can select which packages he wants to install.

Rest will be deleted after first boot wizard.

Advantage is that no internet connection is required.

Disadvantage is that the shipped packages will be outdated after some time and that a full flash image would be pretty big (of course we could offer a small one as well).

I would go for the script as I think setting up an internet connection via Networkmanager should be possible for everyone.
 
I would go for the script as I think setting up an internet connection via Networkmanager should be possible for everyone.
I am strongly against having to set up an internet connection first,

the option with the prepackaged stuff available for install in the first run is good and later reflashing out of various reasons could be done with a firmware image that is free of any programs if someone wants it that way, as you mentioned already.
 
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Sorry when this was mentioned elsewhere but: How big is the nand?
 
Sorry when this was mentioned elsewhere but: How big is the nand?
TBD.. it will be at least larger than the Pandora's NAND.
 
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I would go for the script as I think setting up an internet connection via Networkmanager should be possible for everyone.
I am strongly against having to set up an internet connection first,

the option with the prepackaged stuff available for install in the first run is good and later reflashing out of various reasons could be done with a firmware image that is free of any programs if someone wants it that way, as you mentioned already.
You have to on the Pandora as well.

Don't think it's a problem.

Sorry when this was mentioned elsewhere but: How big is the nand?
8, 16 or 32 GB.

EvilDragon didn't decide yet (or it's nothing I can tell right now)

I hope for 32GB.

So if we ship with 2GB of .deb packages and delete the ones which won't be installed it will easily fir.

Only problem I see is that it'll be outdated pretty soon and we'd have to send new flash SD-cards to Global Components every few weeks.

Also flashing might take a lot longer and I don't know if this wouldn't cost extra.
 
That is a much, my whole desktop pc currently uses 4. 

I would rather like to see the preinstalled stuff stay small. And it should be easier to maintain an noob proof download method than, like you said, keep it up to date on the actual device. 
 
Well, those download and install scripts would have the advantage, that the stuff is up to date anyway then, I have to admit,

but (sadly) still not everyone has an internet connection always available.
 
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I think: absolute bare base image. At first start make a dialog pop up. This dialog would let you decide between different programs or no program for important tasks to install. So it might ask "Webbrowser?" and give you the most popular web browsers to choose from (None, Firefox, Chromium, some others), maybe even with pro/contra information. Then it would go on to the next task. Listening to music, opening pdfs, watching videos, editing documents, etc. If there is an internet connection at that point it will install them right away, otherwise it installs the packages as soon as there is an internet connection.

For people who don't want to connect their Pyra to the internet (why?!?) it could generate little binaries for Linux/Windows/OSX and save them to SD. Those binaries can run on a computer with internet access and download the necessary packages. Then you enter the SD into the Pandora, it auto detects there are packages to install on that SD and asks the user about whether to do it now.
 
Well, those download and install scripts would have the advantage, that the stuff is up to date anyway then, I have to admit.
I really don't see a way to ship Pyras with up to date packages.

If you think it might be a problem to be forced to set up an internet connection then we should add an installation guide (like the pdf manual the Pandora comes with) how to download stuff from the internet to SD-card and how to install it.

Maybe a script that detects the packages in a folder and istalls it.

I think: absolute bare base image. At first start make a dialog pop up. This dialog would let you decide between different programs or no program for important tasks to install. So it might ask "Webbrowser?" and give you the most popular web browsers to choose from (None, Firefox, Chromium, some others), maybe even with pro/contra information. Then it would go on to the next task. Listening to music, opening pdfs, watching videos, editing documents, etc. If there is an internet connection at that point it will install them right away, otherwise it installs the packages as soon as there is an internet connection.


For people who don't want to connect their Pyra to the internet (why?!?) it could generate little binaries for Linux/Windows/OSX and save them to SD. Those binaries can run on a computer with internet access and download the necessary packages. Then you enter the SD into the Pandora, it auto detects there are packages to install on that SD and asks the user about whether to do it now.
I prefer the PND like way to download the .deb files to SD and launch a script that installs the,
 
So we aggree, that some browser, some media player, java, midi, synaptic and one nice looking but basic desktop environment would be good to have from the start for most customers?

Would only have to aggree on which ones then and if they should be shipped or installable via simple script in form of what Askarus mentioned again in the last post.

No OfficeSuite at all? I thought, that it partly defines this system and lets it stand out, so maybe would be good to have it from the very beginning?
Nope - we don't agree at all on installing default bloatwear on the device.  The only things it needs are the OS, a DE (XFCE) and a package manager.  Anything beyond that is bloat - and you deciding what someone else will be stuck with forever - as uninstalls never seem to work properly.

No OfficeSuite at all? I thought, that it partly defines this system and lets it stand out, so maybe would be good to have it from the very beginning?

If one can be installed easily enough from a software repository I see no reason to bundle it on the firmware by default.. many users don't need an office suite on a handheld.. so make it optional..


The base install should be minimal, but capable enough to do normal tasks.. the rest can be installed from a repo, package manager or whatever by the user..
The base install should have Debian Stable or Testing (if we have to), XFCE and a package manager.  Maybe a readme.txt file on the default desktop to tell new users what a package manager is - but that's it.  If someone was smart enough to get online to buy this device - they're smart enough to know which browser they like.  They likely already have a favorite audio player, etc.  Doing force stuff onto the device.

For me it's very important to make it user friendly for new users.

...

It's good to offer some stuff right after startup for new users to use the system without needing to mess around with synaptic package management.

...

Imagine you're new to Linux (really new) and don't know any package, the synaptic won't help any further.

You can look for media player but will get so many results that you'll be confused at first.

It's not like on Pandora.

In the Pandora repo you don't have thousands of packages.

You have about 10 Media players and 5-10 browsers.

You can test all of them.

Debian's weakness for new users is that there are so many packages to get lost.

My suggestion:

Make an installer script which gives different options:

1: Install media suit

2: Install Office suit

3: Install Graphic suit

4: Install Network suit

5: Install whateveryoulikerandomstuff

I think everyone can set up an internet connection via network manager and launch the script.

Alternative:

Also we could ship all those packages as we have enough space on the NAND.

The user can select which packages he wants to install.

Rest will be deleted after first boot wizard.

Advantage is that no internet connection is required.

Disadvantage is that the shipped packages will be outdated after some time and that a full flash image would be pretty big (of course we could offer a small one as well).

I would go for the script as I think setting up an internet connection via Networkmanager should be possible for everyone.
Ahh - the poor noobs again with too many choices so they get confused...  Wrong way to look at it.  Celebrate the choices.

The install scripts sound promising - but still limited by their very nature.

If  you ship the entire repository, or even a large chunk of it, in NAND, it will make OS images and installs painfully slow.

I would go for the script as I think setting up an internet connection via Networkmanager should be possible for everyone.
I am strongly against having to set up an internet connection first,

the option with the prepackaged stuff available for install in the first run is good and later reflashing out of various reasons could be done with a firmware image that is free of any programs if someone wants it that way, as you mentioned already.
You have to on the Pandora as well.

Don't think it's a problem.

Sorry when this was mentioned elsewhere but: How big is the nand?
8, 16 or 32 GB.

EvilDragon didn't decide yet (or it's nothing I can tell right now)

I hope for 32GB.

So if we ship with 2GB of .deb packages and delete the ones which won't be installed it will easily fir.

Only problem I see is that it'll be outdated pretty soon and we'd have to send new flash SD-cards to Global Components every few weeks.

Also flashing might take a lot longer and I don't know if this wouldn't cost extra.
Global Components would probably appreciate it if the flash SD-cards had small images on them too - so the device flashes quicker.



I think: absolute bare base image. At first start make a dialog pop up. This dialog would let you decide between different programs or no program for important tasks to install. So it might ask "Webbrowser?" and give you the most popular web browsers to choose from (None, Firefox, Chromium, some others), maybe even with pro/contra information. Then it would go on to the next task. Listening to music, opening pdfs, watching videos, editing documents, etc. If there is an internet connection at that point it will install them right away, otherwise it installs the packages as soon as there is an internet connection.


For people who don't want to connect their Pyra to the internet (why?!?) it could generate little binaries for Linux/Windows/OSX and save them to SD. Those binaries can run on a computer with internet access and download the necessary packages. Then you enter the SD into the Pandora, it auto detects there are packages to install on that SD and asks the user about whether to do it now.
If you're going to do that, then have a decision tree for it.

Q1:  Do you want to use the package selection wizard (suggested for new users)?  Y/N

            If N, dump directly to XFCE with a package manager and just the utilities to run the hardware itself.

            if Y, then Q2.

Q2:  Which web browser(s) would you like to use?

            (Use radio buttons, list the top 5 or so browsers AND offer two choices - install or skip/none.)

Offer skip/none on each of the configuration lines.

For people who don't want to connect their Pyra to the internet (they may exist), offer instructions on how to download a complete Pyra OS and Debian ARM repository image to SD card or USB device.  Then they need to change the package sources to the local media and they can have a fully functioning Pandora that has never connected to the internet.

At that stage I wouldn't worry too much about auto-detecting packages to install from the SD - better if it doesn't as it's possible for someone to put the whole Debian repository in SD1.
 
Well, those download and install scripts would have the advantage, that the stuff is up to date anyway then, I have to admit.
I really don't see a way to ship Pyras with up to date packages.

If you think it might be a problem to be forced to set up an internet connection then we should add an installation guide (like the pdf manual the Pandora comes with) how to download stuff from the internet to SD-card and how to install it.

Maybe a script that detects the packages in a folder and istalls it.
Taking this a step beyond...

What if it didn't even ship with an OS installed?  Just a network boot loader that asks a few basic questions - to then connect to your network and download and install the OS from the Debian repository.

Offer the current OS repository image on an SD card for sale or downloadable image if someone doesn't want to go through it that way.
 
I think: absolute bare base image. At first start make a dialog pop up. This dialog would let you decide between different programs or no program for important tasks to install. So it might ask "Webbrowser?" and give you the most popular web browsers to choose from (None, Firefox, Chromium, some others), maybe even with pro/contra information. Then it would go on to the next task. Listening to music, opening pdfs, watching videos, editing documents, etc. If there is an internet connection at that point it will install them right away, otherwise it installs the packages as soon as there is an internet connection.

For people who don't want to connect their Pyra to the internet (why?!?) it could generate little binaries for Linux/Windows/OSX and save them to SD. Those binaries can run on a computer with internet access and download the necessary packages. Then you enter the SD into the Pandora, it auto detects there are packages to install on that SD and asks the user about whether to do it now.
I prefer the PND like way to download the .deb files to SD and launch a script that installs the,
You can't just download a .deb file of something you want and then install it without internet connection because of dependencies.What I suggest would also just download .deb files, but it would know which ones to download and the user wouldn't need to know what's happening at all to use it.
 
Well, those download and install scripts would have the advantage, that the stuff is up to date anyway then, I have to admit.
I really don't see a way to ship Pyras with up to date packages.

If you think it might be a problem to be forced to set up an internet connection then we should add an installation guide (like the pdf manual the Pandora comes with) how to download stuff from the internet to SD-card and how to install it.

Maybe a script that detects the packages in a folder and istalls it.
Taking this a step beyond...

What if it didn't even ship with an OS installed?  Just a network boot loader that asks a few basic questions - to then connect to your network and download and install the OS from the Debian repository.

Offer the current OS repository image on an SD card for sale or downloadable image if someone doesn't want to go through it that way.
As long as it's as easy to set up the internet connection as it's with network manager it might be possible.

Just to make it clear.

I'm all for the "clean image, nothing else than the essential" installation.

Slashing is faster and everyone has a clean Debian.

Ship synaptic and some network assistand and a DE and it's all I need.

For newbies ship some virtual manual how to use synaptic and with some suggestions for media player and office ...

Also give a hint to the Pyra wiki and Forum where they can get information about the packages they might want ti use and may ask questions.

I think nearly everyone should be able to set up his system with this method.
 
Well, those download and install scripts would have the advantage, that the stuff is up to date anyway then, I have to admit.
I really don't see a way to ship Pyras with up to date packages.

If you think it might be a problem to be forced to set up an internet connection then we should add an installation guide (like the pdf manual the Pandora comes with) how to download stuff from the internet to SD-card and how to install it.

Maybe a script that detects the packages in a folder and istalls it.
Taking this a step beyond...

What if it didn't even ship with an OS installed?  Just a network boot loader that asks a few basic questions - to then connect to your network and download and install the OS from the Debian repository.

Offer the current OS repository image on an SD card for sale or downloadable image if someone doesn't want to go through it that way.
As long as it's as easy to set up the internet connection as it's with network manager it might be possible.

Just to make it clear.

I'm all for the "clean image, nothing else than the essential" installation.

Slashing is faster and everyone has a clean Debian.

Ship synaptic and some network assistand and a DE and it's all I need.

For newbies ship some virtual manual how to use synaptic and with some suggestions for media player and office ...

Also give a hint to the Pyra wiki and Forum where they can get information about the packages they might want ti use and may ask questions.

I think nearly everyone should be able to set up his system with this method.
I think we have a winner.

Sometimes the simple answer is best.

In fact, if you think about it - this boot to network install partition could simply live on it's own 1MB (or so) partition in the NAND/microSD and be a de-brick option when cold booting with the shoulder button pressed (or whatever the secret combo is).

The big catch - making sure that 100% of units have proper functioning WiFi before they ship.  If someone receives one that can't connect to the internet - they will have effectively bought a brick.

An alternate OS install method using SD card boot with a 'full' media download would be good too - but as a backup.
 
One thing I really dislike about a full flash on the Pandora is the amount of unnecessary cruft that comes along with it - only recently was PNDStore removed in favour of allowing a download of PNDManager, and the number of pointless icons that clutters up the taskbar is amazing.

HOWEVER

Although I personally find these things to be useless and annoying, there are equally people that don't, and like the extra functionality of that menu thing that sits next to the battery indicator etc. I'd quite like to never have to sit down for twenty minutes removing things from the taskbar again, so making things like that optional installs is the way to go.

The danger comes when people start deciding what you will need. Things like office suites, web browsers etc. The OS should be bare bones - enough functionality to run the majority of PNDs (or PYRs) and get on the web to download the features you want. That's all.

D.
 
Suggestion:

NAND is bare bones. There is a package bundle selector pre-installed (that could run on first boot.)

In case the user can't set up internet access at that point, for whatever reason, allow install of said packages from SD-card from within the installer.

possible in case: bandwidth is at a premium or not available for that particular user, include a cd/dvd with all the packages for said bundles, that can be copied to the SD-card for installation.

The latter will be outdated somewhat soon, but for certian big packages (say, libreoffice, openjdk etc,) that might be less of a big deal.
 
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There is a way around the problems people are brnging up I think.

You could have two firmware files: a pure no nonsense image, and a "everything just works" image. These would not be difficult to create: create a "Pyra Usres" deb package with dependencies on Firefox, mplayer, whatever; create the absolute basic image; install the Pyra Users deb package to create the "noob" image.

Heck, if the nand is large enough you could even do both: ship with the base install and the required deb packages and in the first run script have a "I want nothing/I want things" question, at which point it can install the deb packages and/or delete them. Noobs get their "it just works and you don't need internet to do it" and advandec users get their "nothing gets installed unless it is absolutely needed"
 
WizardStan: Was just about to suggest the same reading through the thread, got to the and there you were, pre-emptively ninja-ing me already :p
 
For the no internet use case, Ed could optionally sell an SD card with a mirrored package repository and some easy setup PND (and perhaps some scripts to update the package repository on a system with internet).
 
KISS minimal install. A meta deb could be left on the desktop with some suggested application and also a quick start guide.


Newbies can install the deb which would setup office software a music player etc and power users will install things piecemeal.
 
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