What's This About Shares?

[Chairman_Now]

I've seen a couple of references on some threads about OP selling shares, raising capital, that kind of thing. Can someone clue me in as to what its about?

 

[Prometheus]

As far as I know, the information you seek should be in this thread on the official forum.

 

[Chairman_Now]

As far as I know, the information you seek should be in this thread on the official forum.

Thanks. I searched for "shares" and "capital" and came up with nothing. Very interesting; hope that UK law allows this more easily than US law would; Americans would need to file a Private Placement Memorandum with the SEC here, do a certain amount of disclosure, file regular reports - it isn't all that much different from being a public company, except that any disclosures don't have to be revealed except to investors.

 

[WizardStan]

Thanks. I searched for "shares" and "capital" and came up with nothing. Very interesting; hope that UK law allows this more easily than US law would; Americans would need to file a Private Placement Memorandum with the SEC here, do a certain amount of disclosure, file regular reports - it isn't all that much different from being a public company, except that any disclosures don't have to be revealed except to investors.

They could also issue the investments as bonds, not shares, which are significantly easier to control and much more lax on the regulations.

 

[CPUnltd]

well, as long as they don't lose the majority ownership, I'm all good with whatever tactics are necessary to get things moving forward again... also, I'm ok with most things except the following:

- Robotic overlord usage
- Souls being sold
- Sacrifices to any God(s)
- hangnail torture
- enslavement of anyone or anything
- guerilla tactics
- general dictatorship


...most anything else may or may not be cool... just couldn't think of anything else at the moment...

 

[Chairman_Now]

They could also issue the investments as bonds, not shares, which are significantly easier to control and much more lax on the regulations.

Yes, if allowed in the UK, a convertible bond might be the best way to proceed. We call them convertible notes in relation to non-public companies here in the US, and they are mostly unregulated and require little in the way of legal expenses, too.

Would likely be the vehicle that mitigates against huge failure (insolvency) and huge success (in which case you pay the vig and the bondholders walk, not getting to share in most of the upside). Of course, you might upset some people in that case.

 

[YeahRight]

As far as I know, the information you seek should be in this thread on the official forum.

Really guys? Graig asking again for more money now? (i.e. 2nd batch, Shares, dev fund, ...) What about the remaining ~2,500 Pandora's yet to be shipped out? This is not the time to be thinking about doing such a thing, but yet they do. I remember him posting that they have all the money already to make 4,000 units.

Simplest and most commonsense answer tells me they have burned up all pre-ordered money, and they don't have enough money to finish up the rest of the units for some reason X.

For the people that do invest, I be worried about when the last 1,700 units don't get shipped in 2012 (Due to Volcano X), and everyone left asks for a refund (about 0.5 Million). Opps there goes the last of the investor money as it goes towards refunds, and company goes under, etc.. But at least it kept paying the employees well up to that point.

Have fun investing...

 

[Pleng]

I would advise anybody who is considering investing in the hope of seeing some financial return to proceed with extreme caution. Craig and ED have apparently put a lot of their own money into this venture thus far, and the only sensible thing for them to do would be to use this money to retrospectively issue themselves with shares. While this is 100% legit and I would expect them to, I wouldn't necessarily expect Craig to be particularly open about it.

Thus is they are issuing, for example, 10,000* shares at the value of £1 each, it would seem reasonable to assume that there are at least another 10,001 being issued between Craig and ED. So your steak in the company could be worth half as much as you'd originally thought. You could essentially investing your share of 10,000* in capital in a company which is looking to write off 10,000* of debts.

Also, very importantly, the articles of association of most private limited company state that The Board of Directors will direct when and how shareholders should offer their shares for sale. This means that your investment stays in the company and cannot be sold on until the BOD say you're able to do so. Even then the BOD may place limits on to WHO you can sell shares to - you may only be able to transfer amongst yourselves, or you may have to offer them to existing shareholders first, or perhaps offer the BOD first refusal on any buy-back.

I don't know anything about bonds but it's possible to issue non-voting shares so Craig could retain complete control over the project.

*arbitrary figure picked at random for the purposes of illustration

 

[atomicthumbs]

This is interesting. I have some money I need to invest.

 

[wardred]

I would advise anybody who is considering investing in the hope of seeing some financial return to proceed with extreme caution.

Definitely. Any investment, at least at first, should be looked at more as an investment in enabling the company to do interesting things rather than an immediate return on your money. There may be an *EVENTUAL* return on it, but it'd be over a period of time if there is any.

Craig and ED have apparently put a lot of their own money into this venture thus far, and the only sensible thing for them to do would be to use this money to retrospectively issue themselves with shares. While this is 100% legit and I would expect them to, I wouldn't necessarily expect Craig to be particularly open about it.

Not sure what you're saying here - not an investment specialist, but they pretty much outright say that they're only offering up %25 of the company.

Thus is they are issuing, for example, 10,000* shares at the value of £1 each, it would seem reasonable to assume that there are at least another 10,001 being issued between Craig and ED. So your steak in the company could be worth half as much as you'd originally thought. You could essentially investing your share of 10,000* in capital in a company which is looking to write off 10,000* of debts.

While I'd be surprised if they were *TOTALLY* debt free, they do say the company is carrying very little debt. (The individuals involved in the company may have personal debt.) The stated purpose of the investment is for the company to expand a bit.

Also, very importantly, the articles of association of most private limited company state that The Board of Directors will direct when and how shareholders should offer their shares for sale. This means that your investment stays in the company and cannot be sold on until the BOD say you're able to do so. Even then the BOD may place limits on to WHO you can sell shares to - you may only be able to transfer amongst yourselves, or you may have to offer them to existing shareholders first, or perhaps offer the BOD first refusal on any buy-back.

Very true.

I don't know anything about bonds but it's possible to issue non-voting shares so Craig could retain complete control over the project.

*arbitrary figure picked at random for the purposes of illustration

Also true, but at %25 of company, it really wouldn't matter much if shares are voting or non-voting.

Really, this is a chance to put what should be a little bit of your money into a project that you find interesting and worthwhile. If it makes money, BONUS, but the way I look at the investment is a chance to give OpenPandora a chance to grow. Maybe go with the new board company, or bring the molds home. My understanding is that this also includes the iControlPad - but I could be mistaken here. We'll have the details eventually. Though the iControlPad isn't quite as interesting to me, I actually think it has a better potential for sales and profit - simpler device and I believe a *LOT* of people with smart phones would enjoy controls on them. Not that I don't expect to see a round 3 and 4 of the OpenPandora, but the long delays really did hurt the project. I'm *HOPING* for a huge revival in interest once things start shipping in quantity.

I'm also hoping to see a Pandora2, which, if powerful enough, could be a hand-held and a "simpler" version for under the T.V. I think it'd be interesting to see what could be done with a hand-held that was as powerful as the under the T.V. console - even if it won't be powerful enough to rival whatever the PS4 or next iteration MS and Nintendo consoles end up being.

For me the investment is a lot more interesting if it's an investment in the company, rather than this one product - though I'm still anxiously awaiting said product. ED's videos, and even the manufacturing posts have kept me interested in it.

Cheers!

 

[wardred]

Really guys? Graig asking again for more money now? (i.e. 2nd batch, Shares, dev fund, ...) What about the remaining ~2,500 Pandora's yet to be shipped out? This is not the time to be thinking about doing such a thing, but yet they do. I remember him posting that they have all the money already to make 4,000 units.

...

Well, the offer and its details aren't on the table yet. The original post was really to gauge interest. They're continuing to produce batch 1 with the money they have on hand, and it looks like they have most the parts to do so - most if not all the boards produced if the board company is to be believed, the nubs are in production, and they have all the cases.

There are about 3k more cases for that first batch, and all the boards and nubs to go yet for the last 3k of batch 2.

If things go well delivering the last round of parts for batch2, then this doesn't sound like a bad investment at all.

If; however, there are huge delays again for the remainder of the batch2 parts, then I'd probably want to hear a strategy for going forward before putting money down. (We already know about the current delays for batch 1 and the first 1k of batch2, it's the last 3k parts I'm interested in here.)

The details are forthcoming, but I'd be surprised if we get them before batch1 is totally out the door and/or most of batch2 is done. I'd expect them after the craziness of manufacturing frenzy is finished...or started. However you want to look at it.

Have fun investing...

I certainly intend to, but if this is something you're leery about, or don't have the money for, then certainly I wouldn't encourage an investment. From the other post it certainly appears there are enough people interested in the project(s) to put their money down. Cheers!

Edit: Edited to slay gratuitous grammar mistakes. :-b

 

[Gerix]

One way to gauge an investment is to compare the present value of expected cash inflows to the amount of money invested. IMO, it wouldn't be worth it to lose money to help a company succeed. They should give competitive returns. Otherwise, I could put money in the dev fund.

Also, I haven't heard anything about cases except for the air shipment. A quick search suggests it will take about a month to ship from China to the U.K. If that's true, they would have to be shipped this week (if they haven't already) to prevent them from slowing production. Right?

 

[wardred]

Gerix,
It's not worth it for a lot of people. No harm in that.

I'm not sure what a competitive return is. Let's say you get %5 of your money a year. That's more than most banks at this point. There are some downsides as others have pointed out. Getting your original investment out might be tricky. You'd have to find somebody to purchase the stock, and OpenPandora would probably have some control over who you could transfer your investment to. Let's say you stick with it. That's 20 years to see your original investment returned to you in dividends. Pretty much the same deal with investing in any stock. If the company is doing well, you might be able to sell the stock for more than your original investment, if it does poorly or goes bankrupt...well, you've just taken a 1k-5k bath.
It's a bit trickier with privately held companies than publicly traded companies. There are less ways to sell your stock, and often more restrictions on selling.

The upside is possibly some inside news on developments within the company - depending on the type of stock / details from Craig. No control over the company, but maybe a slightly "louder" voice on where you'd like to see OpenPandora going, and simply supporting a project you think is cool. Definitely not for everybody, but not a bad thing for the price of 3 Pandoras or so.

I thought the cases were already on a ship, but I could be mistaken - and they'd need 3k more if I remember right to finish off batch 2.

 

[WizardStan]

Getting your original investment out might be tricky. You'd have to find somebody to purchase the stock, and OpenPandora would probably have some control over who you could transfer your investment to.

If I were OPT I'd sell non-transferable with a buy back clause: you wouldn't be able to sell to just anyone, but you would be able to sell directly back to OPT, usually after a reasonable turnaround (reasonable being 1-4 weeks from when you make the request to give them time to ensure they have the funds to pay you).

 

[Gerix]

@wardred
I know you're set on buying in, so there's no point discussing it.

 

[Mjlink]

One way to gauge an investment is to compare the present value of expected cash inflows to the amount of money invested. IMO, it wouldn't be worth it to lose money to help a company succeed. They should give competitive returns. Otherwise, I could put money in the dev fund.

Also, I haven't heard anything about cases except for the air shipment. A quick search suggests it will take about a month to ship from China to the U.K. If that's true, they would have to be shipped this week (if they haven't already) to prevent them from slowing production. Right?

"Case Company: All cases finished, 2000 have already arrived in UK (excluding the ones already shipped as as final Pandoras). The rest should soon follow by ship."
http://openpandora.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98&Itemid=13&lang=en

I agree on cases though, they can cause a bottleneck if Batch 2 Cases aren't currently being produced. Also there was talk about some electro-sparkle paint finish, no photos of anything like this around yet.

Chinese New Year is in Two Months™

 

[Gerix]

I've actually seen that. When they say "follow," do they mean soon to arrive or soon to be shipped? Also, the 2000 in the UK plus shipped Pandoras means ~1000 cases are still missing from the first batch, right? I wouldn't care so much, except for the fact that I'm in that 1000.

 

[wardred]

I believe you're right, 1k of cases from batch 1 are awaiting that slow ship from China.

 

[Mjlink]

And if you're in Batch 2 ???? ????? Pretty F'n Scary unless they are working on another 4000, I believe the total number ordered was 10K.

 

[wardred]

And if you're in Batch 2 ???? ????? Pretty F'n Scary unless they are working on another 4000, I believe the total number ordered was 10K.

I think the sourcing of the parts for the last 3k of batch 2 is the most "up in the air" thing right now, and may be what makes or breaks the long term prospects for the project.

From the team's statements it sounds like they're happy with the case and nub manufacturers now, and they seem to have resolved their differences with the board manufacturers which was the element they were most likely to move. There were a couple more tweaks in the works - like the electro-surfaced finish and socketed nubs, and I don't know how much of a delay, if any, those tweaks would introduce. I imagine they'd be introduced for round 3+, and round 2 of the iControlPad - which is produced in the U.K. and already has that surface, I believe, but not the socketed nubs.

I don't know the status of the cases being sent via ship, or the rest of the initial 10k order of cases. Since they're happy with the case manufacturers now, I'd *hope* the cases are already on the ship, and the last batch of cases are coming off of the lines and being painted.

From the timing of things I'd hope to see all of batch 1 and 2 out the door in a timely fashion after Craig starts getting the latest round of nub soldered boards, with a pause because of holidays, and for breath, before a round 3 of orders.

Whether or not we actually see this...

_______________________

If they can get the component manufacturing in line, then I still see a rich future of home brew and emulation centered around the Pandora, despite the delays to this point. If the component manufacturing continues to falter for another few months to a year... then I'd guess that the iControlPad would end up being their premiere product, which would sadden me. I like what they've done with the product, but it's basically just a controller. I like the idea of an "open" console, even if there may be more potential sales in the iControlPad.

As long as there is interest for the iControlPad, I'd imagine it'll be more profitable than the Pandora, even with the price differential. Maybe more profitable isn't quite right, maybe easier to manufacture in quantity.

I'd like to see a few years of a rich Pandora 1 community, and eventually a Pandora 2. We'll see if it comes to fruition.

The topic is interesting to me. I'm not blind to the challenges that still face the team. I'm optimistic, but I really think that the last 3k of round2 will have a significant impact on the future interest in the Pandora. I hope things go smoothly, or, at the worst, there's a good "exit strategy" for sourcing the parts at more reliable manufacturers. Certainly a difficult thing to attain for such a small project.

Gah, enough speculation and long posts from me, at least for a bit.
Cheers!