Where Do You Want Apps To Show Up By Default? Menu Or Desktop?

Stick an SD in, and you want your pnd-file apps to magically appear......

  • On the Pandora desktop

    Votes: 18 9.9%
  • In the menu, sorted by category

    Votes: 163 90.1%

  • Total voters
    181

WizardStan said:
Dead1nside said:
I'll say again that it should always be the user's choice of where something'll go, anything should be able to be changed but the user should be able to choose their preference. It should always populate the menu I think, unless the user specifies otherwise.
Regardless of whether the user gets a choice or not, they still need to do something by default if the user hasn't made any choices yet. Discuss options later, we're discussing what to do by default.
So, there are four alternatives as I see it:
1. Stick the .desktop files in the menu *or* on the desktop
2. Use separate directories e.g. "/pandora/menu" and /pandora/desktop" on the SD cards to store PNDs in, and generate menus based on that
3. Create .desktop files in a known location e.g. "/var/pandora/launchers", and create symlinks to those .desktop files in the menu. Those symlinks can then be moved around freely by the user (to the desktop, to the menu, to a folder, or any combination of these)
4. Have a control panel/configuration option that gives the location to save the .desktop files to.

Which one do you prefer? Should we make a poll?
 
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I think the point here is that XFCE is a desktop environment, not a games device menu.
Using its built in menu is likely going to work a lot better than trying to create a kind of pseudo-menu with desktop icons.
I believe we're not going to be able to use the D-pad to select things on a desktop. (Unless they've done something about it already?)

I actually think, rather than just dumping stuff on the desktop, or having to use a tiny menu to access anything, an actual desktop "widget" which is a menu would be much nicer, and could be configured to much better use the capabilities of the device, instead of trying to shoehorn in an interface designed for something with a mouse.

That said, I suppose PMenu already exists, and if switching between the two can be made fast enough I'd probably use that for when I want a games console, and XFCE when I want a desktop. I'm interested to know how easily this switch can be made? I'd imagine closing XFCE and loading PMenu would be fast enough, but loading even the lightweight XFCE might take longer than I'd like.
 
I think I'll go with my brainfart idea there, more or less.

ie: The system uses searchpaths, so can look in any number of places; I'll just make it so the conf file has multiple searchpaths for apps, with each mapping to a target location to drop the emitted .desktop files; ie: two searchpaths would be all thats needed, but I could see a reason to emit to 3 or 4 different locations..

We're not trying to invent a new system here (ie: we're going to use xfce more or less stock, plus theming it), so we'll just emit .desktops and let it leverage its systems already. (ie: Which also work with every other desktop manager of note out there.)

As to 'pinning' of favourites, its a complicated topic in some regards due to the very nature of SD-based-apps -- the apps can vanish at any time, so we'll have to build something for this; I imagine we can do it post-launch -- a right-click type menu or something that lets you 'pin' an item as a favourite,and have pndnotifyd compare unique-ids to this listing during emit-time and do the extra behaviour. Or script it, or any number of methods. We've been debating a few ways of doing it, but I'm keen to vote for adding more features like this 'later', to keep the surface area of potential bugs smaller for launch (ie: no way in hell _I_ am going to be adding a delay to this project .. when the hardware is ready, we do afew last checks and ship the bugger!)

(For those askin gabout the filesystem structure, do a google for 'libpnd hub' and do some reading.)

But in essence, the pace to drop apps to be found in default searchpaths will be /pandora/apps on either SD slot.

So what we'l do is make it now two paths..

/pandora/apps
/pandora/menu

apps will drop to the one directory, menu the other. Nice and easy.

We can grow it later. (And again, its Open Pandora, you can ditch all this if you dont like it, it won't hurt my feelings ;)

jeff
 
skeezix said:
So what we'l do is make it now two paths..

/pandora/apps
/pandora/menu

apps will drop to the one directory, menu the other. Nice and easy.
With the risk of becoming a bikeshed painter, could you please rename the "apps" folder to something else, so as to not suggest that the "menu" folder serves a purpose other than storing PNDs just like the "apps" folder? E.g. "desktop" or, more clearly perhaps, "desktop-applications" and "menu-applications".

I've spent too much time with BeOS and Haiku and am used to unambiguous folder names :p
 
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dflemstr said:
WizardStan said:
Dead1nside said:
I'll say again that it should always be the user's choice of where something'll go, anything should be able to be changed but the user should be able to choose their preference. It should always populate the menu I think, unless the user specifies otherwise.
Regardless of whether the user gets a choice or not, they still need to do something by default if the user hasn't made any choices yet. Discuss options later, we're discussing what to do by default.
So, there are four alternatives as I see it:
1. Stick the .desktop files in the menu *or* on the desktop
2. Use separate directories e.g. "/pandora/menu" and /pandora/desktop" on the SD cards to store PNDs in, and generate menus based on that
3. Create .desktop files in a known location e.g. "/var/pandora/launchers", and create symlinks to those .desktop files in the menu. Those symlinks can then be moved around freely by the user (to the desktop, to the menu, to a folder, or any combination of these)
4. Have a control panel/configuration option that gives the location to save the .desktop files to.

Which one do you prefer? Should we make a poll?

Chosing between Pmenu and XFCE will be a quick/hidden boot option and/or a supplied application to switch preferences, so pretty easy.

Pmenu uses libpnd internally so does its autoscan for apps etc, and uses some category mapping, have to ask cpas about that, so I'm talking about standard opendesktop style Desktop Managers here using .desktop emitted files.

(1) and (2) are related really

(3) isn't over practical in the event of SDs being ejected or swapped between slots, etc. symlinks may make it 'goofy'

(4) Its in a conf file already; adding a panel for that could be done, but I think woudl be a bad idea possibly; for people who need a control panel, better to just have a well defined default that 'just works'; for those who want to really fiddle, they won't mind opening the shell ;) (or installing a third party control panel.)

I'm a fan of 'doing halfway right, without pestering anyone' so lets just go with someone 'well defined', so everyone can just poiint people to a FAQ and say 'do this', and it'll keep it easy. More options is just more difficulties on newbies and midbies?

jeff
 
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dflemstr said:
skeezix said:
So what we'l do is make it now two paths..

/pandora/apps
/pandora/menu

apps will drop to the one directory, menu the other. Nice and easy.
With the risk of becoming a bikeshed painter, could you please rename the "apps" folder to something else, so as to not suggest that the "menu" folder serves a purpose other than storing PNDs just like the "apps" folder? E.g. "desktop" or, more clearly perhaps, "desktop-applications" and "menu-applications".

I've spent too much time with BeOS and Haiku and am used to unambiguous folder names :p

*grin* You think too much like me; I was planning that, but left my description as 'apps' to cover my bacon in case theres some pain in changing it; paths should all depend on the libpnd conf files, but I was heding my bets ;)

I'm keeping path-names short, due to being FAT32 and 'feels safer' ;) So "desktop-applications" would be more for peopel to screw up when creating directories :p

/pandora/menu and /pandora/desktop maybe, but I'll fiddle.

I'll "do" and you can bitch when you see me check it into git ;)

(I think as we approach shipping date (again), the amount of email I get every day about little bikesheds increases. People are so pent up now ;)

jeff
 
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skeezix said:
dflemstr said:
WizardStan said:
Dead1nside said:
I'll say again that it should always be the user's choice of where something'll go, anything should be able to be changed but the user should be able to choose their preference. It should always populate the menu I think, unless the user specifies otherwise.
Regardless of whether the user gets a choice or not, they still need to do something by default if the user hasn't made any choices yet. Discuss options later, we're discussing what to do by default.
So, there are four alternatives as I see it:
1. Stick the .desktop files in the menu *or* on the desktop
2. Use separate directories e.g. "/pandora/menu" and /pandora/desktop" on the SD cards to store PNDs in, and generate menus based on that
3. Create .desktop files in a known location e.g. "/var/pandora/launchers", and create symlinks to those .desktop files in the menu. Those symlinks can then be moved around freely by the user (to the desktop, to the menu, to a folder, or any combination of these)
4. Have a control panel/configuration option that gives the location to save the .desktop files to.

Which one do you prefer? Should we make a poll?

Chosing between Pmenu and XFCE will be a quick/hidden boot option and/or a supplied application to switch preferences, so pretty easy.

Pmenu uses libpnd internally so does its autoscan for apps etc, and uses some category mapping, have to ask cpas about that, so I'm talking about standard opendesktop style Desktop Managers here using .desktop emitted files.

(1) and (2) are related really

(3) isn't over practical in the event of SDs being ejected or swapped between slots, etc. symlinks may make it 'goofy'

(4) Its in a conf file already; adding a panel for that could be done, but I think woudl be a bad idea possibly; for people who need a control panel, better to just have a well defined default that 'just works'; for those who want to really fiddle, they won't mind opening the shell ;) (or installing a third party control panel.)

I'm a fan of 'doing halfway right, without pestering anyone' so lets just go with someone 'well defined', so everyone can just poiint people to a FAQ and say 'do this', and it'll keep it easy. More options is just more difficulties on newbies and midbies?

jeff
I agree, I was just summing up what others had said throughout the thread.
Also, see my post that you might have missed.
 
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dflemstr said:
Should we make a poll?
Don't make me do something violent to someone's bunny. :ph34r:
(is just a joke)
 
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second exodous said:
Oh gosh, please no pop-up windows. The system that is being developed right now is much better than that.

No it's not.

The system I propoed gives the user a choice. The first time an SD card is inserted users are asked how they would like their apps to appear. Any other system would force one or the other to be done by default.
 
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I like the menu idea with a favorites option. With regards to how it would work, why can't you create an option in the pnd xml file saying "Desktop" with the option "True" and "False" or something similar? Or maybe you could create a blank file in the apps directory named 'favorite' which libnotify could recognize and then populate the correct .desktop file on your Pandora?
 
IMHO - just dumping them to the desktop is a bad idea. I plan to have two 32GB SDHC cards in my Pandora - eventually that is WAY more icons than I would ever want to see on the desktop.

As for menu based - OK, if we have to, I guess.

Ideally each .PND file should have some very brief metadata that provides a classification for the program type. Two layers of definition should suffice.

Layer 1
Games
Emulators
Productivity
Web/network
Scientific
Media
Utilities
System Settings

Layer 2 - Under Games
FPS
Strategy
RPG
Side Scroll
Space
RTS
Action
Other

Layer 2 - Under ... etc ...

Notice I used 8 categories for each of the above. 16 would be easy for the next idea.
Who wants to use menus or have Windowsesque icons cluttering the desktop on a hand held device?
Use 2 radial menus - one for each analog stick - 8 selections on each one.
Push one stick in the direction of what you're selecting and straight to the sub-menu with up to 16 sub-classes.
Push one stick in the direction of what you're selecting and straight to the listings and/or additional sub-menus.

Might seem cumbersome until you think about it - Any application is within 3 swipes of an analog stick. Applications you use a lot would be easy to remember the pattern and hop right to. Yeah, I know what device that resembles, but I like my Zod's radial interface.

No, I don't see anything like this happening for launch, but carrying the metadata for application classification like above would be a quick step towards making interfaces like this possible.
 
Wow, this thread has a lot of good ideas, by the time all of this is sorted out this might change the way a lot of functionality is done on portable devices. Though I'm starting to ask myself if this is just reinventing the wheel just because we'll have a bunch of 4 GB SDs rather than one 32 GB SD. Package managers install and sort the file system just fine, or maybe I'm missing something.
 
I already have KDE's menu-widget on my desktop. But I also have a classic menu in my toolbar, and I rarely use the menu on my desktop. It's just that I had space to spare(22" dual-screen) and it's nice once in a while.

But the pandora has far less screen-real-estate, and I'd rather put informational widgets on the desktop. There's not going to be much room left for an app-launcher...
 
second exodous said:
El Jefe said:
What you are about to read is the be all end all of this issue:
Make like win XP
1. insert card
2. click through a few bubbles that pop up to tell you that you inserted a card
3. open start menu
4. click my computer
5. find the correct disk
6. open it, and find its applications folder
7. ???
8. PROFIT!!!
Thats a horrible way to do things. Programs can only install in 3 places: Pandora, SD1, SD2, and USB media if plugged in. Once again hopefully everything will install through the Ångström repositories or though Craig's repository (read App Store).

This is talking about installing isn't it? As far as programs installed on a SD card you wouldn't need this, the program on the SD card could be pre-configured to appear on the desktop or the menu though pnd extension.
Whoosh!

(always wanted to post that)
 
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emmitting .desktop-files to `/.local/share/applications and `/Desktop is probably the best way to do it. Only problem I see is that xfce4-menu sometimes takes minutes to detect new .desktop-files on my system unless I open the configuration-dialog, but there is probably some automatable way to notify it of new entries.
 
Grench -- go look at some of the PXML.xml descriptions, or google for 'libpnd hub' to find a link to the PXML-spec. But yes, it has categories and subcategories in it ;)

conso -- it really depends if its recent enough and built to use the various notification methods (dbus, inotify, etc), or if it just has a built in sigtimer that polsl every few mins. The one I was fiddling with uses notify and picks up pretty quickly.

jeff
 
Are you guys familiar with a desktop Docking Bar/Station ?
I use one on my desktop so I can keep it clean... If I'm not mistaken, there is something like this already working for linux as well....


I just realized how this would solve all our problems with the Overcrowding of the desktop on the Pandoras...
Some pics of mine for those that are unaware of desktop Docks:
Hovering Categories
Hovering Apps in a Category
Hovering the Favorite Apps


I really think this would be a GREAT solution for us to have direct access to all apps in an organized way in our desktops. I would even go for this instead of a dedicated menu if available.
If one of the devs is interested, I could search for the linux dock I mentioned before...


What do you guys think?
 
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