Action button labels


Am I that predictable?  If using a different style like G1-G6, I think choosing letters which were used in the previous button layout is aiming for confusion.  Yes X Y and Z are widely used, but if we choose them simply because they're widely used then I think that's probably why they are widely used.  We could give some other letters love.  I think a standard character along with a number is a very fine choice, but I do not know which order the current shape of six numbers should take.  Maybe a spiral.

G5   G4

   G1   G3

G6   G2

I don't especially care for the letter G myself, but I get it and don't have any less personal ideas.
Predictable? Not really, but it was your request that led me to adopting a single sequence example in the first place, so seeing the opposite request brought you to mind. :)

I agree with avoiding combinations involving A, B, C, X, Y & Z for the reason you stated.

If we had to pick a pair of letters I'd personally go with I & J (simply because that was another letter pair I used to use for nested loop counters) but for a single letter, G for gaming seems reasonable. :)

As I mentioned in a previous post, I think that B and X buttons on the pandora should be first in the sequence.   I was thinking something along the lines of:-

Two logical rows -

G5  G6

G4         G2

G3  G1

or

Three logical rows -

G6  G5

G4         G2

G3  G1

Looked at another way, this could also work:  (and probably makes more sense with the two extra buttons being smaller)

2 rows of 2 +2 extra -

G6  G4

G3          G2

G5  G1

- Neelix
 
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Some games use A, especially those that were coded without reference to a real Pandora, and assumed A would be a sensible button to use.
No game was coded with "A". The button "A" doesn't exist anywhere other than the label on the plastic. It is "Home". Anyone coding to use the game buttons would have had to make a conscious decision to use "Home" and understand where it is placed.
It shouldn't irritate me, but the fact we've still not really settled on a winner between B and X does I'm afraid.
And if they had been labelled Beta and Chi that would have solved everything, would it?The problem you're describing has nothing to do with the labels, it's all just placement. They could have had any manner of weird symbols and people still wouldn't agree on whether the left, bottom, or right are the correct ones.
 
  The problem you're describing has nothing to do with the labels, it's all just placement. They could have had any manner of weird symbols and people still wouldn't agree on whether the left, bottom, or right are the correct ones.
True,  but just changing the placement without also changing to a different set of labels would seem to be asking for trouble. :)

A side effect of changing the labels is that the old placement can be discarded without penalty.

- Neelix

EDIT:  Just to be clear I don't believe the placement of PgUp/PgDn/Home/End should be changed, just the sequence of gaming labels.
 
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Changing the current layout is desirable mainly for these three reasons:

- Unlike dedicated game consoles, the Pyra has a keyboard which already has buttons labeled with A, B, X and Y (and C, Z, I). Although the confusion this causes can somewhat be avoided by using graphical images like guihints or by using language conventions like "A button" and "A key", it is still not considered to be good practice to have two different buttons with the same label.
Are you serious about that?

I am currently trying to imagine someone hitting the X key on the keyboard part of the Pandora over and over again in desperation when a game he loaded says "Press the X button to jump", without ever thinking about it could mean the button X...

Seriously, I do not consider that as any issue. Anyone who will not find out that X when playing a game is most probably the button and not the keyboard should be kept away from any electronical devices as far as possible.

I've heard a lot of different issues and things (especially at the weeks I've been at the GamesCom), but the first thing gamers do is press the buttons instead of the keyboard.

- The Pandora layout is different from all other major consoles which can be emulated on it. It is unavoidable to be different from many of them, but it is not necessary to be different from all of them. When playing emulated games, you have to mentally map physical buttons to emulated buttons. This is harder if the source and target set of symbols are the same. E.g. to play SNES games on the Pandora you have to remember that A is B, B is X, Y is A, X is Y. By using a different symbol set, you still have to learn a mapping, but at least there is less potential confusion.
Yes, the Pandora layout is different from all other major consoles.

And to add more confusion, you want to make the Pyra layout different from the Pandora layout as well.

Does not compute.

I've been playing a lot of SNES games, even before I had the Pandora.

I've never actually remembered what button was where, as most of the games didn't need remembering the buttons, you just got used to the control and played.

There aren't that many games showing some button sequences which you need to press in the correct order.

For existing Pandora programs and games, it is true that changing the labels takes some effort. On the other hand, it would be a good opportunity to standardize guihint button icons (cf. http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15778-pandorapyra-applications-usrsharepandyra/) and encourage Pandora/Pyra devs to modify their interfaces and help screens to use those standard guihints. This would help a lot to create a nice uniform look and feel.
We've gone from GP32 to GP2X to WIZ to Pandora.

Based on my experience I can tell that a minority of developers will recompile their old games and fix stuff like that.

And especially games that are being released on both the Pandora and the Pyra would need two different labels for buttons.

That doesn't make much sense, it just adds more work for developers. 

I've never seen a company change their button layout from one device to the next one (well, except for if the controller has changed significantly like the Wii)

Well, Latin fit these more than Greek does and at least most of these emulated systems have Latin too.

We do want a layout that makes sense.
Yes. And the reason any other Latin letter layout makes more sense than the one we have in the Pandora already is...?

Then again, im not against blank keys.
As someone said, that would be confusing unless we do that face swapping idea.
I can imagine the homebrew games...

"Press a blank button to jump and a blank button to shoot. Another blank button opens the menu"... :)

No, he means latin. He's talking about still using ABXY but changing the positions: that would require changing existing apps, and anyone that wanted to do a simultaneous Pandora/Pyra release would need to change their documentation at least.
Oh. I thought he was talking about the difficulty for devs to change them to Greek. At least changing the positions would keepthe same letters.
 And cause a mess for any existing Pandora game.

The SNES has the same letters as the Pandora as well, just in a different layout.

snes9x4d4p keeps the correct letters in default setup. Even playing games like Super Mario World becomes a challenge - because running and jumping is nigh impossible.

What I think would be a good fit - given all the above considerations - would be to use multi-character labels with Latin letters.  A collection of short words or syllables for example:

  • Fee Fie Foe Fum
  • Do, re, mi, fa, so, la, ti
Umm... nope, sorry, that's just too much. 

We clearly should have one letter / number per button, nothing else.

Everything else doesn't really make sense to me, but maybe someone can explain to me why exactly we need to change our current layout...?

It doesn't help with emulators, but it makes things a lot more confusing for existing Pandora programs and homebrew.
The reason *I* dislike the current layout is it gives no clue as to what should be the prime button. Some games use A, especially those that were coded without reference to a real Pandora, and assumed A would be a sensible button to use. Many games then used B, perhaps after the Nintendo layout, or perhaps because our version of uboot uses it as 'select'. Lately, the X button seems to be a popular choice, following the Sega/MS/western PSX standard. If the A button had been in a sensible location within easy reach every game would use that (apart from the odd PC port using Enter) and it wouldn't be guesswork every time you start a new game.
And changing the layout would change that?

Nope, it wouldn't.

It's not consistent on ANY console. Neither PSX nor SNES nor MegaDrive nor XBox.

The button used to confirm, cancel, open menu, etc. changes with every game you play.

I'm mostly playing role playing games, and playing two at the same time is quite a challenge, as they often swap cancel and okay or the menu button.

A new layout or any symbols will not change anything about that.

Well, since you were asking for my realistic opinion here:
While you're here, can we also get your reason for putting the 2 extra buttons where _wb_ has been posting?
It's the only possible way to add two buttons so that they don't get in your way.

I don't want to make the buttons smaller and more cramped together.

We can't go further to the edge (physical issues).

Putting a button below the current B button will lead to accidental presses when you want to press A, Y or both together.

That won't happen if the button is below and above A.

BTW: So far, we had 3 polls about the button layout.

In each poll, keeping the current Pandora layout won with a high advantage against any other idea here.

It seems most of the users are with me to keep the current layout... or did I miss some poll where they all voted that the current layout is bad?
 
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Yes. And the reason any other Latin letter layout makes more sense than the one we have in the Pandora already is...?
Does this look good to you for ABC XYZ?


C  Y


A       B


Z   X


They look so all over the place unless we do this.


 I  Y


A      B 


II  X


Which looks like I's.


or


1   Y


A       B


2   X


or


Change the location.


Z   Y


A       B


     X  C


Which at least looks like the letters have a connection and C is easier to reach.


or


Z   Y


X   C   B


     A  


Which kind of looks like the set up we wanted before.

And cause a mess for any existing Pandora game.


The SNES has the same letters as the Pandora as well, just in a different layout.


snes9x4d4p keeps the correct letters in default setup. Even playing games like Super Mario World becomes a challenge - because running and jumping is nigh impossible.
All it takes is to change the default settings by the user.

It's the only possible way to add two buttons so that they don't get in your way.


I don't want to make the buttons smaller and more cramped together.
Something could get in the way of something else regardless.

You can make the extra buttons smaller height wise. I want to say flatter here, but that's not

quite the right word.

Putting a button below the current B button will lead to accidental presses when you want to press A, Y or both together.


That won't happen if the button is below and above A.
Could lead to accidental presses, but I don't see why that can't happen with just the 4 buttons we have now. As you say when you used the Vita.

Below A will have the same problem, except now that button will be hard to reach and A and X will be in the way of it.
 
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Z   Y

A       B

     X  C

Which at least looks like the letters have a connection and C is easier to reach.
Pressing X together with B (i.e. for running and jumping in Mario) will almost always trigger C as well in that case (as your thumb is coming from the lower right).

That doesn't happen when it's below A. 

Z   Y

X   C   B

     A
Would lead to the same issues when trying to press Y, for example. 

And cause a mess for any existing Pandora game.

The SNES has the same letters as the Pandora as well, just in a different layout.

snes9x4d4p keeps the correct letters in default setup. Even playing games like Super Mario World becomes a challenge - because running and jumping is nigh impossible.
All it takes is to change the default settings by the user.
If existing games already have the buttons incl. instructions hardcoded, they would all need to be changed and recompiled. 

It's not just something the user can change.

It's the only possible way to add two buttons so that they don't get in your way.

I don't want to make the buttons smaller and more cramped together.
Something could get in the way of something else regardless.

You can make the extra buttons smaller height wise. I want to say flatter here, but that's not

quite the right word.
That's what I want to do anyways, but putting them in a place where they don't get in the way for other buttons as well is a good thing in any case ;)  

Putting a button below the current B button will lead to accidental presses when you want to press A, Y or both together.

That won't happen if the button is below and above A.
Could lead to accidental presses, but I don't see why that can't happen with just the 4 buttons we have now. As you say when you used the Vita.

Below A will have the same problem, except now that button will be hard to reach and A and X will be in the way of it.
The two additional buttons won't be used as extensively as the normal four face buttons.

Only a few systems actually need that many buttons.

They actually are easy to reach and won't get in the way there - and they will if you put them below B or in the middle.
 
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Pressing X together with B (i.e. for running and jumping in Mario) will almost always trigger C as well in that case (as your thumb is coming from the lower right).


That doesn't happen when it's below A. 


Would lead to the same issues when trying to press Y, for example.
Even if you were to cut down/flatten the buttons Z and C? What about a game that required you to press A and Y or A and X together. Not

that I can't thing of some right now.

If existing games already have the buttons incl. instructions hardcoded, they would all need to be changed and recompiled.


It's not just something the user can change.
Which may be a problem for Homebrew,but I'm pretty most if not all emulators let you rearrange the software buttons.

That's what I want to do anyways, but putting them in a place where they don't get in the way for other buttons as well is a good thing in any case ;)
I thought you were just going make the buttons smaller not just shave them down.


Well, "flattening" those two buttons wouldn't, at least mostly, get rid of the "in the way" problem?

They actually are easy to reach and won't get in the way there
Z Y


A     B


C X 

I meant A and X wouldn't get in the way the way of C and are you sure C would be easy to reach?
 
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Well, since you were asking for my realistic opinion here:
While you're here, can we also get your reason for putting the 2 extra buttons where _wb_ has been posting?
It's the only possible way to add two buttons so that they don't get in your way.

I don't want to make the buttons smaller and more cramped together.

We can't go further to the edge (physical issues).

Putting a button below the current B button will lead to accidental presses when you want to press A, Y or both together.

That won't happen if the button is below and above A.
Thank you for responding to my question.

I understand your wishes not to make the buttons smaller and closer together, (although I do believe that I wouldn't mind the buttons being more the size and distance of the GP2X, but that's my preference) However, there should still be room if you move the nubs closer towards the Start/Home/Select buttons. Not much extra room is needed to fit those extra 2 buttons, and there is room to be had by moving those nubs closer.

-God Ginrai
 
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Yes, the Pandora layout is different from all other major consoles. And to add more confusion, you want to make the Pyra layout different from the Pandora layout as well. Does not compute.
The confusion is fed by the fact others consoles have sames labels (x,y,a,b)in different position. Δ ,X,Π,Ω would facilitate because you will not have to think "x is y "in this game, "x is a" in this game but jump is Δ in this game and jump is Ω, you can proceed like this with a,y,x,b but when you see X you want to push X, not Y. So it would be easier with Greek letters. Also it would be so easy to play psp games.

You said that Pyra isn't Pandora, that's why we had to chose a new name. I view Pyra as a new start, with modular stuff etc....

We've gone from GP32 to GP2X to WIZ to Pandora. Based on my experience I can tell that a minority of developers will recompile their old games and fix stuff like that. And especially games that are being released on both the Pandora and the Pyra would need two different labels for buttons. That doesn't make much sense, it just adds more work for developers.
If you can't stand these Δ ,X,Π,Ω, and

We clearly should have one letter / number per button, nothing else.
Same label on buttons is fundamentally senseless, also action buttons need to stand out. Even if it isn't critical it's a design flaw that should be corrected to me . I hope that you will at least use something like this:

140319055113900681.png


(Fonts: ω,χ,α,π,β,: Reference1; γ: Sans)
 
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I understand your wishes not to make the buttons smaller and closer together, (although I do believe that I wouldn't mind the buttons being more the size and distance of the GP2X, but that's my preference) However, there should still be room if you move the nubs closer towards the Start/Home/Select buttons. Not much extra room is needed to fit those extra 2 buttons, and there is room to be had by moving those nubs closer.
IMO Nubs are close enough, they would be too far from the side if they are closer. And I like the way two extra buttons are placed because they are outside of the 4 main buttons, so it will be like they aren't here when you don't need to use them.
 
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IMO Nubs are close enough, they would be too far from the side if they are closer. And I like the way two extra buttons are placed because they are outside of the 4 main buttons, so it will be like they aren't here when you don't need to use them.
And it would be frustrating when you do need to use them. The nubs would not need to be moved that far, they wouldn't be too far away from the side at all.

-God Ginrai
 
Changing the current layout is desirable mainly for these three reasons:


- Unlike dedicated game consoles, the Pyra has a keyboard which already has buttons labeled with A, B, X and Y (and C, Z, I). Although the confusion this causes can somewhat be avoided by using graphical images like guihints or by using language conventions like "A button" and "A key", it is still not considered to be good practice to have two different buttons with the same label.
Are you serious about that?


I am currently trying to imagine someone hitting the X key on the keyboard part of the Pandora over and over again in desperation when a game he loaded says "Press the X button to jump", without ever thinking about it could mean the button X...


Seriously, I do not consider that as any issue. Anyone who will not find out that X when playing a game is most probably the button and not the keyboard should be kept away from any electronical devices as far as possible.
This is not really an issue in games, at least not if they only use the gaming controls and not the keyboard.

It is an issue though in Pandora/Pyra-specific applications that use both the action buttons and the keyboard.

Or are you saying that the Pyra will only be used for playing games? ;)
 
ED seems to read the thread from here on, so I want to repeat my W instead of C idea:

Z Y

A     B

W X 

With this W,X,Y and Z make a circle/rectangle, which is easier to remind. A and B are the primary and secondary middle button, which makes sense, too.

One last point: On the Gamecube there WAS a very obviuos main button: (A). It was bigger, central and green. I know, that design doesn't work for the pandora, but there was this one console solving this problem. ;)
 
Yes, the Pandora layout is different from all other major consoles. And to add more confusion, you want to make the Pyra layout different from the Pandora layout as well. Does not compute.
The problem with the Pandora's layout is that it uses the same labels as established layouts, but in different positions. This leads to confusion with emulators and general navigation in apps.

"A" as the standard "accept, proceed, confirm" button and "B" as "cancel, go back, deny" button is engraved in my head from playing GameBoy, N64 (or any other Nintendo console), XBOX, etc. It does not makes sense to use these buttons in the same way on the Pandora (since "A" is on the left and "B" is on the right), and in fact PNDManager uses "B" for "accept" and "X"  for "cancel" and you can probably see why this is confusion at first and only really works due to the extensive use of tiny button images (aka guihints).

Similarly in traditional games "A" is often used for "Jump", while "B" is used for "shoot, kick, attack". This also does not work well on the Pandora and while a decent game should allow rebinding of the buttons the fact is only few actually implement this feature.

In certain emulators a game might say "Press A", but requires you to press "B" or "X". You can rebind these in most cases, though.

This might be way less confusion if you are coming from the GPH heritage (since they also use this layout), but for new users it certainly is and is the reason why some people voted for adapting the SNES or SEGA layout or change it into something completely new.

It might break backwards compatibility, but people are willing to give that up (or rather require the dev to change their app, which is fairly easy and since a repackage or recompile might be needed anyway you might as well do both) for a layout which is more akin to something used commonly in the market (and backwards compatible to some emulated consoles, which is better than the current situation).

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post and clear up some of the mess and confusion with your rationale :)
 
If there's place on the right for a button why not:


Z Y C
A   B
  X
or


Y C
A   B
W X
? (talking about the place of the buttons not the labels) just wondering.
 
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