Put Us Out Of Our Misery!


Monk said:
OpenPandora have never called it an investment, nor us investors, that I am aware of. They have called it a purchase, from day one. It's already a purchase. I agree there are ways to use the term "investment" accurately, but as an alternative to a purchase isn't one of those ways for this project. That's using the term in a way which winds up one of our member no end, last time I saw him post on the topic, because it's simply not accurate.
:unsure:

edit: I conceded on one point: if you bought the Pandora intending to resell it at profit, then and only then might purchase equal investment, because you have a tangible risk in its delays.
 
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rmm21 said:
sold said:
Want a pat on the back for your supposed altruism and righteousness? Not gonna happen.
Altruism is unselfish concern for the welfare of others.

Indeed it is. Now go look up "context".
 
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sold said:
rmm21 said:
sold said:
Want Pandora? Buy Pandora. Want a pat on the back for your supposed altruism and righteousness? Not gonna happen. Most of the people here want to get their Pandora and use it in as many kick-ass ways as they can. So to those of you who feel the need to vent their cynicism and frustration here...

Altruism is unselfish concern for the welfare of others.

Indeed it is. Now go look up "context".
You first.
 
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WizardStan said:
Monk said:
OpenPandora have never called it an investment, nor us investors, that I am aware of. They have called it a purchase, from day one. It's already a purchase. I agree there are ways to use the term "investment" accurately, but as an alternative to a purchase isn't one of those ways for this project. That's using the term in a way which winds up one of our member no end, last time I saw him post on the topic, because it's simply not accurate.
:unsure:

edit: I conceded on one point: if you bought the Pandora intending to resell it at profit, then and only then might purchase equal investment, because you have a tangible risk in its delays.
Preorder is what it said in my email in 2008 as in "an order placed for an item which has not yet been released" with no mention of investment in those paragraphs of text. It "evolved" later in the forums as almost like an investment after all the near-ships, but as Monk and you said, it's still inaccurate.
 
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Monk said:
Why does it REQUIRE any more commitment from the customer than is put in black and white? An offer of goods is made, a tentative delivery estiamte of within the next two months at most is given, and money changes hands. [ ... ] However, I don't feel there is any "requirement" for me or any other customer to be anything like as committed as I have been - that's a personal choice, there's not a hint of it in the sales order or anything like that.
I think your conception of this purchase was based on false impression for which the OP team is responsible. The black on white was probably as amateurish as rest of the project.



Monk said:
fiori_musicali said:
What if everyone starts pulling out their money halfway the process and the OP team is left alone with massive pre-paid orders and components with the money already scattered around the world and transformed into half-complete parts.

Then the OP team are up shit creek without a paddle. They're taking a big risk. I believe their insurance supposedly covers the customers, and if that's true then only the OP team are taking the risk. I don't envy it them, but to be blunter than I ever intended in one of MY missives, it IS their risk - and if the damn things sells gangbusters like the device we're promised OUGHT to, then it's they that will reap the financial rewards. That's how it works - the people who take the risks get the rewards if it works out, and the penalties if it doesn't. It OUGHT to work out. If they lose their customers for whatever reason then, well, they lost their customers and their gamble. That would be bad, but there it is. No-one wins. That happens, sometimes.
True, but I don't think of the OP team as a company at this point (they won't even profit from the first batch), but rather a proxy. They do all the hard work (which I couldn't do any better) for me, and I contribute my small share financially, hoping to benefit from it in form of a Pandora. When they have made back all the money they've lost, actually have a positive balance and start making profit and thereby acting more like a real company (who can offer professional services), then I'll start treating them like such knowing who I'm dealing with and what conditions and circumstances apply.



Monk said:
That's distinctly clearer-cut than I'd generally hoped to phrase things, but I feel the need for knife-sharp accuracy in the face of this rather wooly "we owe it to them" type of attitude. We don't owe them anything - they owe us. Literally. Having the INTENTION of wanting to help them, or of wanting the project to succeed, or (and so on) is a different matter, and I think it's important from OPs POV that we're "on side" and I feel everyone should want them to succeed. But it's not our business to keep them afloat regardless of much much they get wrong, or to leave our money with them until they don't need it any more. That would be ludicrous.
I thought due to me bring the matter to a head to more clearly illustrate my point some people would think I'm pissing on their toes. You're doing the same in insinuating that I claimed the customers owe something to the OP team, as that's not what this is all about.

As I said I presented a point of view that isn't often contemplated on when these issues pop up again and again. You can make your own exaggerations and interpretations of what the nature of transaction between you and the OP team was, but they're not any closer to reality if you ignore other aspects of the project and how it is carried out. In other words you seem to simplify the matter to better suit your own interests which are getting a Pandora and having your investment secured, whereas the reality of the situation doesn't conform to that as it obviously never was a trip to the grocery store. Was the OP team's communication and description of the nature of the project insufficient for the Job Public? Sure. At least we're getting more specific in what the actual controversy is.



Monk said:
OpenPandora have never called it an investment, nor us investors, that I am aware of. They have called it a purchase, from day one. It's already a purchase. I agree there are ways to use the term "investment" accurately, but as an alternative to a purchase isn't one of those ways for this project. That's using the term in a way which winds up one of our member no end, last time I saw him post on the topic, because it's simply not accurate.
It isn't an investment per se because first of all your money is secured (on paper anyway, if the project went down then have fun waiting for your money instead of your Pandora as the OP team is knee-deep in debts) and you as the customer are not expecting to financially profit from it. It still isn't a simple purchase either because every single person who preordered is tied to getting the whole mass-produced first batch of complete units out and so the OP team (the proxy) is dependent on preorderers who give them enough time to complete the whole project, and not just 50% of it.



Monk said:
To even suggest calling getting a refund at ANY stage a sin has me floored. My mouth has hit the floor. It's not a pretty picture, but you have completely stunned me. That is just so outrageous I don't even have a comeback for it :(
You can get stuck in my choice of wording all you want, the words themselves don't matter as much as grasping the ideas they're meant to express.

Maybe the difference is in commitment that for me has roots in more than just getting my Pandora, as it represents to me a more open, community-powered and creative process of designing, building and producing high-quality technology without the usual involvement of marketing whose purpose is to manipulate the consumers into thinking they absolutely need something they could well do without, and the whole underlying strategy of designing products that can be sold to "anyone" even at the cost of general quality and feature sets of the products and no direct input from the consumer base which instead is used to being told from above what they want and settling for that. A future with more of OP's and Pandora's kind is also what I'm investing in.
 
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Preorder is what it said in my email in 2008 as in "an order placed for an item which has not yet been released" with no mention of investment in those paragraphs of text.[/

And since the product is still yet to be released... :p

It seems to me that people on the boards decided the word "investor" was more applicable due to the fact that the product has been so delayed and everyone has pre paid, so the funds are there for the devs to use as working capital. Sort of. And there has not even been any conformation that this is even the case.

No matter how you slice it, it is a pre-order. As long as we get the device in our hands, there are no shifty dealings. And it seems that the OP team have no issue giving people their cash back if they don't want to wait. I take that as a good sign that they aren't in any financial trouble. Yet.

I sincerely hope they profit from the next batch, because if this device is everything it's cracked up to be, then I believe it will become popular enough to make the devs good profit. ATM they are still finalising it and it seems that they finding their feet. First batch buyers are in it for the fun of being there as the project develops to the point where it can be accessible to anyone.
 
there is no reason. this argument is redundant. our investment is that of time and faith, and our reward is the opportunity, the experience and the extra silk screening.

at this point everyone could back out and OP and the pandora would be probably end up just fine. the parts are all paid for and the general pop consensus seems to be that once it comes into production alot more people are going to be willing to buy one. maybe a little dept juggling.

nihilism - the glass is refillable.
 
Quit all this being for and against something. if we aere all dreaming which some do here, then keep on believing that you will have a pandora one day. there are a lot of people who have cancelled their orders. only because of the constant wall of nothing that they got from the so called team. If I were dreaming, then everyone that did cancel, should get one anyway for supporting them in the beginning, but finally got tired of being led astray. what video will you watch first, or what game you will play is nuts. because there will never be anything for you to play with.
 
...Umm buttom line here is the people that feel really loyal to this project dont really feel cheated at all. they took the time to understand that they're buying a device designed and built by people online 3 different continents with very little money and for very little profit (if any) on the first run of the device. If they sell all 4000 of the first units and never made another I suspect they'd still be hoping not to lose their homes in this. The people that felt or still feel cheated at this point know exactly what to do, ask for their money back and go, many already have and many have stepped up to take their place. Some of them still not knowing what they're in for but at the same time nothing stopping them from learning that it's a device designed and created by a loose collection of people in their spare time, hell I've said it at least twice in this post for anyone still not clear on that point. If people cant handle that there are possible delays under a situation like that I've also included a hint at what their best option is. (Hint: ask for their money back and leave). Whether they've mislead people or not at this point is moot. No one has yet been cheated in any shape or form, they've paid for a device with and indeterminate shipping date but clearly is the process of being built, claiming a website says it'll be out in November or December of 2009 mislead you is silly, it's like a month and a half later, send them and email or read a blog and that will correct the situation right there.

It's not ready yet, if you can't accept that there's a metaphorical door for you, dont let it hit you on the way out and have a nice life. This isnt rocket science to understand.
 
I'm sick of you and your pro-Pie attitude. All we seem to get around here are Pie fanbois and I for one feel that Pie hasn't lived up to its promise.

[ ;) ]
 
User is online Alpha2, we were lied to , isnt that enough? gezzzzz.
 
The things I said are not that obvious to Joe Public and as such deserved a mention along with little elaboration. The discussion (collective rant) was becoming so one-sided and rather self-gratifying beating of Craig the community punching bag that I thought I'd balance things out and explain the situation - even if it's just a reminder for you who hasn't had his head shoved where the sun doesn't shine - from another perspective.

It's fine if you have your own way of looking at things that is more compatible with the current standard systems of manufacture and economy, I'm not here to superimpose my own ideology or business models to anyone else, just pointing out some fundamental differences in the whole workflow of this project that should be considered when becoming involved.
 
^I suppose it's aimed at the post Monk has removed.

edit:
I'am able to share the opinions of both sides. When watching the whole situation from outside in an objective impersonal way, I can see the reasons for the situation being like it is. You need a "good cop" and a "bad cop" to pull such a big project through. I have the feeling that Craig buried himself too much in his role. I don't know if it's mostly intentional, the consequence of past development, or random. It would be so easy to establish a different image of himself right now, as the boards are much more level-headed, recently. I refuse to go into detail, because I'm not able to explain the situation good enough in English.
 
I don't want to start a new topic, as I expect this device has already been posted... but look!


3D OMAP Pandora phone!

0,1425,i=257174,00.jpg
 
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