Tobriand
Well-Known Member
NB: This is a long post. It'll probably be out of date by the time it gets posted.
Well... aren't we a lot of scientific thinker-type empiracists?
So far as my religion, I'm broadly speaking Jewish, though of the Liberal persuasion which basically hold that, as has been mentioned, scripture is a lot of guidelines and can be on occasion ignored. And that God exists, fairly obviously.
So I most certainly believe in a God.
Just as a response to Rico's refusal to believe in a God that he can't see, I'd like to ask whether he'd believe in one even if he could see it? I know a certain philosopher by the name of David Hume stated that
He then went on to state that Miracles occur among barbarous and primitive peoples, that anyone who sees one has a vested interest in it being true (they might get made a saint or something), that miracles occur in all faiths (as do religious experiences) and can't all be right, and a few other criticisms I can't remember.
The thing is, our friend David Hume was also a devout atheist. He believed the world was governed by firm, irrefutable, natural laws (which of course, I doubt any of us quite believe, if only because science makes progress by disproving the established doctrine of its time). Had he witnessed a miracle, it is nearly certain that he would not have accepted it as miraculous, but instead searched for a cause using science to explain it. Had Hume experienced a divinity directly, he would most assuredly have tried to find reasons to explain his experience without reference to a divine. Despite claiming adamantly that he was an empiricist (seeing is believing).
There are also two parables which might be worth mentioning here. One's by a fellow called John Wisdom, and is the parable of the Gardener. The other I can't remember who wrote it, but is similar.
The Parable of the Gardener
Once, 2 men were walking through a forest, and they came to a clearing. In this clearing were some seeming signs of order - some aparrent flowerbeds, for example... a patch of lawn say. But also signs of chaos and disorder - weeds growing, perhaps a blackberry bush, maybe the lawn hasn't been trimmed for a long while.
"Friend" says one man to the other "clearly this is a garden of some fellow or other. Let us stay a while and try to meet him"
"Nay nay, there clearly is no gardener here" says the other "it is too disorderly".
So the two decide to set up camp, and wait a while. And after 2 months or 2 years or however long of waiting, the garden seems still fairly well kept, but there has been no sign of the gardener despite both men's constant vigilance.
The second says to the first "See? I am right, there is no gardener - let us begone and continue our journey!".
But the first replies "But of course you can't - clearly he is an invisible, undetactable, intangible gardener who does not want to meet us!"
The second is flustered by this. "How, then, can he exist?"
And the first replies "Because the garden is kept".
The Parable of the Island
Two men were in a boat, desperately rowing for an island having been kicked off their ship. Their crew had mutanied, and they were feeling a litle miserable. They eventually reach an island, and on it stands a factory, or an opera house, or something else which clearly needs intelligent input to build. One declares that the structure must have just come together out of happenstance - there is no necessary creator, because he doesn't believe in it. The other point out that this is stupid, and that factories don't just appear out of thin air.
Ok, so admittedly they're only passingly relevant, but nonetheless worth thinking about. The point of both is that whether you believe in God, its what you *believe* in that counts. If you believe in God then nothing will convince you otherwise. If you don't, then the contrary applies.
Oh, and just for some randomness... what do you mean you can't prove or disprove God (a posteriori, inductive, formed of synthetic statements).
1) The proof of God's nonexistance from repetition
God does not exist
God does not exist
God does not exist
Therefore: God does not exist
2) The disproof of God from magic sky men
God is a magic sky man
Everyone knows magic sky men do not exist
Therefore: God does not exist
There'll be more coming once I've been reminded of them. In the mean time, anyone else got a few good ones?
Well... aren't we a lot of scientific thinker-type empiracists?
So far as my religion, I'm broadly speaking Jewish, though of the Liberal persuasion which basically hold that, as has been mentioned, scripture is a lot of guidelines and can be on occasion ignored. And that God exists, fairly obviously.
So I most certainly believe in a God.
Just as a response to Rico's refusal to believe in a God that he can't see, I'd like to ask whether he'd believe in one even if he could see it? I know a certain philosopher by the name of David Hume stated that
A miracle may be accurately defined as a transgression of a law of nature by a particular volition of the Deity, or by the interposition of some invisible agent.
He then went on to state that Miracles occur among barbarous and primitive peoples, that anyone who sees one has a vested interest in it being true (they might get made a saint or something), that miracles occur in all faiths (as do religious experiences) and can't all be right, and a few other criticisms I can't remember.
The thing is, our friend David Hume was also a devout atheist. He believed the world was governed by firm, irrefutable, natural laws (which of course, I doubt any of us quite believe, if only because science makes progress by disproving the established doctrine of its time). Had he witnessed a miracle, it is nearly certain that he would not have accepted it as miraculous, but instead searched for a cause using science to explain it. Had Hume experienced a divinity directly, he would most assuredly have tried to find reasons to explain his experience without reference to a divine. Despite claiming adamantly that he was an empiricist (seeing is believing).
There are also two parables which might be worth mentioning here. One's by a fellow called John Wisdom, and is the parable of the Gardener. The other I can't remember who wrote it, but is similar.
The Parable of the Gardener
Once, 2 men were walking through a forest, and they came to a clearing. In this clearing were some seeming signs of order - some aparrent flowerbeds, for example... a patch of lawn say. But also signs of chaos and disorder - weeds growing, perhaps a blackberry bush, maybe the lawn hasn't been trimmed for a long while.
"Friend" says one man to the other "clearly this is a garden of some fellow or other. Let us stay a while and try to meet him"
"Nay nay, there clearly is no gardener here" says the other "it is too disorderly".
So the two decide to set up camp, and wait a while. And after 2 months or 2 years or however long of waiting, the garden seems still fairly well kept, but there has been no sign of the gardener despite both men's constant vigilance.
The second says to the first "See? I am right, there is no gardener - let us begone and continue our journey!".
But the first replies "But of course you can't - clearly he is an invisible, undetactable, intangible gardener who does not want to meet us!"
The second is flustered by this. "How, then, can he exist?"
And the first replies "Because the garden is kept".
The Parable of the Island
Two men were in a boat, desperately rowing for an island having been kicked off their ship. Their crew had mutanied, and they were feeling a litle miserable. They eventually reach an island, and on it stands a factory, or an opera house, or something else which clearly needs intelligent input to build. One declares that the structure must have just come together out of happenstance - there is no necessary creator, because he doesn't believe in it. The other point out that this is stupid, and that factories don't just appear out of thin air.
Ok, so admittedly they're only passingly relevant, but nonetheless worth thinking about. The point of both is that whether you believe in God, its what you *believe* in that counts. If you believe in God then nothing will convince you otherwise. If you don't, then the contrary applies.
Oh, and just for some randomness... what do you mean you can't prove or disprove God (a posteriori, inductive, formed of synthetic statements).
1) The proof of God's nonexistance from repetition
God does not exist
God does not exist
God does not exist
Therefore: God does not exist
2) The disproof of God from magic sky men
God is a magic sky man
Everyone knows magic sky men do not exist
Therefore: God does not exist
There'll be more coming once I've been reminded of them. In the mean time, anyone else got a few good ones?