A further update on preorders (18th of November 2012)


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Timstertoo

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So I say ignorance is probably bliss, and I wouldn't be surprised if Craig doesn't want to know himself so he can get some sleep at night.

You know that a ltd and a person is something different. In German law, you have to put some money aside when you create a ltd. If you go bankrupt, only this money is used to pay your debts. Nothing more, not your personal money. So I wouldn't worry to much, if I were an egoistic guy. I would just worry if I wanted to deliver the product I promised and make the community happy.

Yes I know the difference between a ltd and a person. I also know that a ltd is under English law and not German.


I must admit that I have no clue about how things are run in Germany as I have no business interest there but in England if you go belly up with your ltd and mis management can be proven you can still be made accountable and will have to put in funds you own that are not necessarily an asset of said ltd. Like your house. Not an easy thing to proof though and probably not applicable to Craig.


At the same time going through a bankrupcy is not fun. Even if you do get to keep the house.


I don't think Craig is an egoistic guy that is trying to do one over on the rest of us. And I certainly don't think Craig did any of this on purpose. I'd sooner think he's a mini Nick Leeson then a mini Bernie Madoff. I'm pretty confident that Craig and I would do just fine in a pub with a pint.
 

taylor-madeak

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So I say ignorance is probably bliss, and I wouldn't be surprised if Craig doesn't want to know himself so he can get some sleep at night.

Well, everyone has an opinion and now we know yours.


If you're seriously questioning when or where Craig can source the capital with which to satisfy his preorders, then you haven't been paying very close attention around here. Now, I'm no accountant (my wife is the one with the degree in that field, not me), but over the course of the past year there have been multipe cash infusions both into the Pandora project itself and into Craig's businesses in general. This includes, in no particular order and certainly not all-inclusive: sales of new "Super Panodra" 1GHz prototype units, sales of main-run "Super Panodra" 1GHz units, money from investors (I know, I know, this funded the GC production startup), donations, sales of new "Classic" Pandora units, iCP sales, a largeish business tax return, and the iCP2 kickstarter.


Don't mistake me, I'm not asking for a "where has the money gone" explanation. My question is a far simpler and far more personal "where do I stand and when will I finally get my product?" Peace of mind be damned, I just want a straight answer for a change. Facts, with the relevant evidence and reasoning to back them up.
 

Timstertoo

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So I say ignorance is probably bliss, and I wouldn't be surprised if Craig doesn't want to know himself so he can get some sleep at night.

Well, everyone has an opinion and now we know yours.


If you're seriously questioning when or where Craig can source the capital with which to satisfy his preorders, then you haven't been paying very close attention around here. Now, I'm no accountant (my wife is the one with the degree in that field, not me), but over the course of the past year there have been multipe cash infusions both into the Pandora project itself and into Craig's businesses in general. This includes, in no particular order and certainly not all-inclusive: sales of new "Super Panodra" 1GHz prototype units, sales of main-run "Super Panodra" 1GHz units, money from investors (I know, I know, this funded the GC production startup), donations, sales of new "Classic" Pandora units, iCP sales, a largeish business tax return, and the iCP2 kickstarter.


Don't mistake me, I'm not asking for a "where has the money gone" explanation. My question is a far simpler and far more personal "where do I stand and when will I finally get my product?" Peace of mind be damned, I just want a straight answer for a change. Facts, with the relevant evidence and reasoning to back them up.

Well if you have been paying better attention then you say I have you'd know that all that money (premium Pandoras, 1GhZ superduperpremium) is gone and the tax return probably doesn't even cover the pending refunds let alone the money he owes ED for the 1GhZ units that still need delivering. The investment into ED's company doesn't help Craig too much bar the free units he got for the original pre orders but sold to others. And that money is gone.


The ICP2 Kickstarter money is for exactly that. It's a different company. If he'd syphon that into OP ltd and forfeit on a timely delivery of the ICP2s he'd put himself wide open for a lawsuit that would also involve his personal assets.


I really don't see a need to fight with you as we're in the exact same boat and I don't really see how my post upset you but I apoligise for the parts that did.


As for your question about where you stand, my guestimate as someone who has no access to Craigs books is that you stand where I stand, on a spot where no Pandora is going to land anytime soon unless we let ourselves get blackmailed into paying the unit again as an "upgrade".
 
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taylor-madeak

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Well if you have been paying better attention then you say I have you'd know that all that money (premium Pandoras, 1GhZ superduperpremium) is gone and the tax return probably doesn't even cover the pending refunds let alone the money he owes ED for the 1GhZ units that still need delivering. The investment into ED's company doesn't help Craig too much bar the free units he got for the original pre orders but sold to others. And that money is gone.


The ICP2 Kickstarter money is for exactly that. It's a different company. If he'd syphon that into OP ltd and forfeit on a timely delivery of the ICP2s he'd put himself wide open for a lawsuit that would also involve his personal assets.


I really don't see a need to fight with you as we're in the exact same boat and I don't really see how my post upset you but I apoligise for the parts that did.


As for your question about where you stand, my guestimate as someone who has no access to Craigs books is that you stand where I stand, on a spot where no Pandora is going to land anytime soon unless we let ourselves get blackmailed into paying the unit again as an "upgrade".

I apologize for seeming so snarky. Chalk it up to the internet being what it is: text is a poor carrier for things like inflection, tone of voice, and body language. I wasn't upset by your response, it would be foolish for me to allow a largely anonymous post on an internet forum to get under my skin, but I do appreciate your willingness to apologize for the perceived transgression and trying to keep the tone polite. It's not right for me to take my impatience with Craig out on anyone else, and if I did so without meaning to, I do apologize for it.


The point to my last post is that the portion of Open Pandora Ltd. that is under Craig's management has become something of a black hole. Money keeps going in, but Pandoras don't seem to be coming out. I've been watching Craig put all this effort into new projects - the iCP, iCP2, "Super Panodra," Pandora 2, etc. - but all the while he still has this incomplete project full of preorders hanging over his head. Like you, I don't want to be bullied into essentially paying for a second Pandora unit before I even receive the first one I was promised when I laid out my money some years ago, but it feels like that's exactly what's going on here. I feel like my order is being held for ransom!


Obviously, this pisses me off.


Help us out here, Craig. I, for one, would like to hear a solid plan for filling the "classic" preorders and getting that albatross of your back. The old "every new Pandora sold at the higher price ships a preorder" model doesn't seem to be working. Nor does the "every 1GHz Pandora sold ships a preorder" method. What's the story? Where do we stand? For God's sake, at least make up a spreadsheet and sort out a new queue!


If I sound frustrated, it's only because every time I've seen this matter get raised with Craig for the last year, he has either made some lame excuse as a weak dodge (see post earlier in this thread) or - more often - has completely ignored the matter and gone running off to run a Kickstarter or some other project, leaving us completely in the dark. It's become wearisome.
 

Timstertoo

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@Taylor-MadeAK


Water under the bridge then :)


@PokeParadox


I greatly appreciate the fact that you donate every month at the same time I don't feel it's a cross you should bear. But that's another discussion so just thanks for everything you do for the community.
 

zounder1

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Hello everyone,


As you know we emailed all our remaining preorder customers recently.

Um, I never received an email and I am a pre-order customer. What needs to be done to fix this?


And no, my email has not changed and my address has not changed either.


Thanks.

Bump. This is a genuine question I need answered. I got buried with the bitch-fest going on here.... sigh.


Thanks.
 

kasp

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Number of preorder customers contacted in this e-mail effort: _____________

  • Less refunds requested since then: <_____________>
  • Less "Super Panodra" upgrades: <__150________>
  • Less RMAs since then: <_________>
  • Current number of outstanding preorders: (_____________)
  • Estimated next date of "Super Panodra" shipment to customers: ___/___/___
  • Estimated next date of "Classic Preorder" shipment to customers: ___/___/___
  • Next order number to be shipped: __________

I think the entire community would love to know the answers to these.
 

Godmil

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A lot of those things would be good to know, but experience tells me that giving the dates would be a bad plan, as dates have never gone well.


I'm actually more interested in more info from ED like, did any of the preorders funded by donations get sent out? And if so were they all to his customers or some to Craig's?
 

fusion_power

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Is there any word from GC on TV-Out production?

Yes, I've been working the last two weeks on that with them.


It's not as easy actually, normally you have a MOQ of about 10,000 for such special cables, so we need to find ways work around this.


All puzzle pieces are coming together right now, so it's looking good.
Such tiny cables can do such big trouble, I never expected that. ^^ And then you see all the cheap China handhelds come with a TV cable...somehow every Devices out there seems to have one, except the Pandora. :ph34r: Must be a beast of a cable. :rolleyes:


I recommend to make sure that the Pandora 1 TV Cables also can be used onto a future Pandora 2, so it may be not an big loss, if you have to order more Cables than currently are needed. ;)
 

EvilDragon

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A lot of those things would be good to know, but experience tells me that giving the dates would be a bad plan, as dates have never gone well.


I'm actually more interested in more info from ED like, did any of the preorders funded by donations get sent out? And if so were they all to his customers or some to Craig's?

Yes, they have been shipped.


7 to my customers, 7 to Craigs, 8 more will ship within this week.
 

neutralrobot

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Which means what? Those of us waiting on refunds won't be seeing them till the new year? Glad I cancelled my preorder so I could money to try and scrape by through the holidays. Pft.

Yeah, that. I'm sure there's not much that can be done about it right now, but the fact that a huge refund recently had to be made (which put us in the present dilemma), combined with the fact that we're trying to get refunds and being left in the cold... Well, it makes me feel like there's an understanding on their part that we can sit around for an arbitrarily long period of time without even knowing exactly where we stand. I don't like that.


Edit: Fixed typo.
 
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palstyo

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I've got units back in stock since last week Monday.

So sound like you didn't get any order/payment from Craig yet again?


No more delay pls.


Coz. we paid money for test run units but actually not anymore.


Now we can get only mass production units....


If another delay will be appear may be I can't keep my interest.
 

F_Slim

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Hello everyone,


As you know we emailed all our remaining preorder customers recently.

Um, I never received an email and I am a pre-order customer. What needs to be done to fix this?


And no, my email has not changed and my address has not changed either.


Thanks.

Bump. This is a genuine question I need answered. I got buried with the bitch-fest going on here.... sigh.


Thanks.
You did order from Craig and not from ED though, right?


Then you probably should PM Craig about this.


If you ordered from ED ... well, then you are not supposed to receive an email send to Craig's customers, so there's nothing to be fixed.
 

PokeParadox

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I greatly appreciate the fact that you donate every month at the same time I don't feel it's a cross you should bear. But that's another discussion so just thanks for everything you do for the community.
Nope, but I feel if we like the Pandora - and physical buttons as opposed to pure Touchscreen like everything else - we need to help this project along! :)


I remember being stuck in preorder limbo and I want to help people get out of it.


I believe Craig and ED are doing what they can to resolve the preorders, I can't do much to help, apart from to donate what I can each month and this is something I want to do.
 

klapse

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This is why upgrades are the best way to get a unit and clear the queue.
 

palstyo

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Such tiny cables can do such big trouble, I never expected that. ^^ And then you see all the cheap China handhelds come with a TV cable...somehow every Devices out there seems to have one, except the Pandora. :ph34r: Must be a beast of a cable. :rolleyes:


I recommend to make sure that the Pandora 1 TV Cables also can be used onto a future Pandora 2, so it may be not an big loss, if you have to order more Cables than currently are needed. ;)
Well I think point is most of Chinese device use quite common mini plug and almost pin compatible as well that's why they don't need to make their own cable.


But Pandora use special connector that's why have to make own TV cable, this is different between Chinese one ;)
 

fusion_power

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Such tiny cables can do such big trouble, I never expected that. ^^ And then you see all the cheap China handhelds come with a TV cable...somehow every Devices out there seems to have one, except the Pandora. :ph34r: Must be a beast of a cable. :rolleyes:


I recommend to make sure that the Pandora 1 TV Cables also can be used onto a future Pandora 2, so it may be not an big loss, if you have to order more Cables than currently are needed. ;)
Well I think point is most of Chinese device use quite common mini plug and almost pin compatible as well that's why they don't need to make their own cable.


But Pandora use special connector that's why have to make own TV cable, this is different between Chinese one ;)
AFAIK the parts, especialy the Connector for the Cable is ready and already buyed/in storage. But even with this, it seems that no Company want to build the cables.
 
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