Right, let's start recovering this?


quartercast

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EDIT: Rage removed.

Craig, do what you think you need to do, in order to survive. I hope you don't go to jail for committing mail fraud (accepting orders you have no means or way to deliver == fraud).

Er, have you swallowed a blue-ringed octopus?
 

neutralrobot

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It's always good to get updates - even when the news isn't good. It's getting pretty hard to hold on, to be honest. With ED's new business plan, I got excited and thought that preorders would be taken care of in a fairly short amount of time. I guess this is my fault for misunderstanding somewhere, but these ups and downs are tough to weather. I imagine it's much more stressful for you guys, though. I'm sticking around for now, but I really can't keep it up forever. Hope it gets sorted soon!
 

ledow

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So, again, you need new people to make new orders, or you need existing orders to pay more to "upgrade", in order to furnish original orders that have already paid.


If you don't get new orders or new upgrades, people don't get their orders, ever.


How does this differ from a pyramid scheme now? (Refunds you say? I've heard of pyramid schemes giving refunds to get rid of troublemakers that may draw attention to the scheme's existence. Community resilience? Every pyramid scheme is filled with people just trying to get *their* result and even bouying up the scheme with additional funds if they think it helps them get a result for themselves. Shipped products? Every pyramid scheme satisfies X percentage of the participants who get exactly what they were promised before it starts to collapse, but X is never 100%).


Intentional or not, what's stopping people who want the device from dealing with you is the business operation, not the device, technical problems, delays or anything else. Still nobody knows how many orders remain, what order things are shipped in, etc. If you were to add up the total amount of money sent to the pair of you by purchasers, investors and everyone else, and divide it by the number of Pandora's actually out there in the wild four years later, it's got to be one of THE most expensive devices ever made.


I actually feel sorry for ED for getting dragged into "rescuing" this. It was a viable business with a viable product at the start. ED has basically dredged a viable business out of the mess and improved the product. But at the end of the day at least 50% of it is still based on a pyramid scheme.
 

elwing

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It's always good to get updates - even when the news isn't good. It's getting pretty hard to hold on, to be honest. With ED's new business plan, I got excited and thought that preorders would be taken care of in a fairly short amount of time. I guess this is my fault for misunderstanding somewhere, but these ups and downs are tough to weather. I imagine it's much more stressful for you guys, though. I'm sticking around for now, but I really can't keep it up forever. Hope it gets sorted soon!

you're definately stealing the words from my mouth... you thief!

How does this differ from a pyramid scheme now?

in the end, hopefully, the base of the pyramid will support the pyramid, unlike in a real pyramid scheme...
 
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rohezal

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Why is this a pyramid system?


They produced a computer system, get the cost wrong (to cheap) since it is the first time they did it and some producing companys did bad things. But the product is finished and can be delivered.


Since the preorders were to cheap, they are selling the working system first to people who pay a very high price for it. From this money they build the remaining orders from the parts they allready buyed. They made a mistake and they are fixing it. They just needed time. It worked well and they got even stock units.


But then there were 20K € missing since a lot of people want a refund at once. Getting the money out of selling the finished product to new customers is no problem, but getting it in this short time is a problem. It worked but now the production speed is slowed down until they sold enough new units. Which will happen.


Craig will get taxes in a few weeks so the production speed will increase after that. So there is just a delay no danger.


To speed things up they are selling CC units they repaired. Craig offers limited cheaper upgrades to get the speed up again.


I don't see a real problem. Just an annoying slowdown which will be fixed in a few weeks or even sooner when the CC unit selling is working well and the cheaper updates or buyed.
 
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ibisum

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The problem is this: the pre-orders, people who were promised hardware in exchange for funding the Open Pandora project up-front, have not been fulfilled. *Original* orders, unfulfilled. This fact is a near-total betrayal of the spirit of the entire Open Pandora project.


In the meantime, new deals 'come and go', in a proposal to 'save the project with the help of the customers' - in other words, those who paid more, later, got their hardware, while (some) of those who paid in the beginning are still waiting, and now *new* debtors are being added to the project with enticement schemes and 'special offers' designed to help pay for previous investors expenses, which, oddly enough if you drew a picture of it, stack up. All one, on top of each other.


In summary, regarding the pre-order disaster: I do not believe that Craigs situation vis-a-vis the pre-orders has been honestly handled with as much thrift as it warrants, considering that every day that passes on one of those original invoices is another day in the ponzi scheme, and that this fact now is even reaching criticality because of the threat to EvilDragons, so far successful, yet significantly weakened, non-ponzi operations.


Until every last pre-order is fulfilled, I believe we shouldn't be placing new orders. Every last one.
 

Godmil

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This is absolutely nothing like a pyramid scheme, drawing that comparison is not helping anyone.


Good luck getting this going. A small discount on upgrades sounds nice, as long as they don't jump the queue ahead of the people who payed full price.


But I can't afford another penny, so it's academic from my part.


EDIT: now ponsi-schemes! oh FFS. Look, when the money is there for an old preorder to be shipped, that person is gone... deal done, out of the system, there is no hanging around collecting more and more money from new people.


It's more like a line, with an offset. money from new orders pays for the new one, and helps move the offset closer to the front of the line, until (probably soon) they catch up. and then it's all good.
 
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ibisum

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What will life be like when there are 1Ghz orders unfulfilled in Craigs' queue?
 

monty

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How does this differ from a pyramid scheme now?

By not making anyone any money, by being accidental and, in theory, by being a temporary state of affairs. On the 'accidental' point, which I don't suppose anyone would disagree with, a pyramid scheme requires scheming.
 

monty

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What will life be like when there are 1Ghz orders unfulfilled in Craigs' queue?

Life will continue in largely the same manner as before. Seas won't boil, seven headed beasts won't decend upon the land.
 

kasp

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What will life be like when there are 1Ghz orders unfulfilled in Craigs' queue?

About what it is now. There are 1 Ghz orders unfulfilled in Craigs queue. :lol:
 

rohezal

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The problem is this: the pre-orders, people who were promised hardware in exchange for funding the Open Pandora project up-front, have not been fulfilled. *Original* orders, unfulfilled. This fact is a near-total betrayal of the spirit of the entire Open Pandora project.

Some of the old preorders who got the pandora to cheap have to wait some time longer since OP need some money from more expensive sales to build the parts from the preorders together. OP made the price to cheap and a paid in advance to a company who made needed parts and went out of bussines.


They have to make the money from more expensive sells, so they can build the remaining pandoras. They have most of the parts ready.


So it is not betrayal, it is an unexpected waiting time until the product arrives. Annoying yes, but necessary.


Other people who paid more get the product faster. This may feel unfair, but it isn't. It is just necessary to build the pandora for the preorders and fullfil the promise. Sounds strange but is logical.
 

Fzero

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PS considering offering some kind of cheaper upgrade deal for 10 days, good, bad idea?

Nice to get these regular update comments Craig.


Also, count me in too if you do this option mate.


I can't pay additional hundreds of pounds so I was happy to wait for my original old order...BUT...if you can offer upgrade to the 1ghz model for a fair additional fee, which I could afford, I'd definitely do it too.


If it helps pay off backlog, win.


I get a better Pandora spec, double win.


Cheers
 

elwing

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what I'dd be interested in is an upgrade to 1GHz but still at the same place in the preorder queue, un upgrade without being premium I mean...
 

hedwards

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The problem is this: the pre-orders, people who were promised hardware in exchange for funding the Open Pandora project up-front, have not been fulfilled. *Original* orders, unfulfilled. This fact is a near-total betrayal of the spirit of the entire Open Pandora project.

Some of the old preorders who got the pandora to cheap have to wait some time longer since OP need some money from more expensive sales to build the parts from the preorders together. OP made the price to cheap and a paid in advance to a company who made needed parts and went out of bussines.


They have to make the money from more expensive sells, so they can build the remaining pandoras. They have most of the parts ready.


So it is not betrayal, it is an unexpected waiting time until the product arrives. Annoying yes, but necessary.


Other people who paid more get the product faster. This may feel unfair, but it isn't. It is just necessary to build the pandora for the preorders and fullfil the promise. Sounds strange but is logical.

I'd been griping to myself about the fact that my order represented several hundred dollars in interest free loan. But, the bottom line is that due to the CC problems, I'll in fact be getting the product at a significant discount for the time that I've had that money held up. What's more even going on 4 years later there still aren't any competitors other than the 1ghz units.


Sure it would be nice if I got mine when all those other orders went out, but for those referring to it as fraud it's just ridiculous. I'm not sure what the specifics of fraud are in the UK, but general it has to be intentional. Taking an order and finding out later that due to some unforeseen complication it would be delayed isn't fraud. It's not good business practice, but it's not illegal providing one didn't know ahead of time. It happens, suppliers go out of business, unexpected changes to demand occur.
 

Fzero

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Far as I'm aware there's no case of fraud..


I gave OPT my money for the Pandora but it was clear that it was a project funding 'with some risk on my part'.


If the whole thing was abandoned and liquid or whatever ... I'd not get my money back or Pandora. That much was clear.


Not ideal but thats the risk taken to back this project.


...and why I'm extra grateful that Craig continues to keep on keeping on.


Also that Ed stepped up in real hard times and saved the project.


I'm still keeping the faith.


One day I will own a Pandora
 

Monkfish

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Are our queue places going to be displaced by new 1ghz orders/upgrades? I have been without a Pandora since 22nd of July, Open Pandora received my original batch 1 on 24th in exchange for reduced cost of the preorder. I really dont mind waiting as i waited a long time for my original machine but if we are to be moved back in the queue order perhaps something could be done to compensate us. Hoping that were still going to be getting cool wooden box etc
 

EvilDragon

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I thought the investment cash that was sought and gotten last year?, was to clear all this shit up , get production happening in Germany and send out all the pre-orders back logged . I have to ask, if that cash wasn't sufficient to do this, why didn't you seek the correct amount at the time to do so. This fighting fires approach isn't working, it's been going on to long. Surely Craig and ED you must see that by now.

Yep, that's what the investment cash was for and is used for.


My business plan still is working as planned, no issues here. Don't confuse me with Craig - we're different persons and two different companies (OpenPandora GmbH in Germany and OpenPandora Ltd. in UK)


The plan included selling new Pandoras and use the profit to send out units to the old waiting customers, both to Craigs and my customers.


I didn't just want to clear my debts but the ones of Craigs company as well. From a business point of view, this is pretty damn stupid - OPT Ltd. could've gotten their own investors or file for bankruptcy.


But what's outstanding for the whole Pandora project is that it is based on a community - so I didn't want to behave like a hardcore business guy, but as part of the community, so my plan was to get EVERYONE out of this mess, not just me and my own customers.


So this included Craigs company as well as all you guys who are still waiting for your Pandora.


That plan has been followed and it works as planned.


To speed things up, production of the 1GHz units has started.


Craig agreed to buy these at production costs from me and sell them to customers.


I sent him units from the first batch, but I never received the payment for those.


These units I sent are a currently a loss for my company (20K EUR), and that's quite a bit of money.


My company is still in the clear, I don't have any financial issues. But I would have if I just continued to send out more 1GHz Pandoras to Craigs company right now, that's all.


Keep in mind that 70% of 1000 Pandoras have to be paid in advance - and that payment needs to be done in about 2 weeks for the next 1000 units. I have that money when I sold all the 1GHz units I got on stock now, so no worries here.


But if I send more units to Craig without even having received the payment for the first ones, I might be short of money for that payment.

I wasn't real clear on what the business plan actually said, it wasn't spelled out that clearly (especially if you read the goals section in the plan), but thats just me. Thats why I posted - as you quoted - that as a question. Basically if it didn't include the money required to clear pre-orders, it should have, that is what I was trying to say in that point.

The plan ALWAYS had been to clear all old preorders with the profits made from new orders. According to the plan, after 4000 produced Pandoras, all of them would've been delivered.


Thanks to the 1GHz units, this will now be the case MUCH faster, most probably after 3000 produced Pandoras (and we are just approaching 2000, so not too far away).


It would NEVER have been possible to raise enough money to ship out all old preorders at once AND have money left for the production. We would've needed about 1 Million EUR for that.

But the point is, you can't change the past. The only thing we can do now is move forward. And instead of trying to fight spot fires to keep the business afloat. I think it's clear that whats needed is investment that will clear the pre-orders and give enough breading space to carry on. Whether this means seeking VC, Angel funding or selling part of the business - it needs to be addressed.

Again, you're talking about OpenPandora Ltd. here, not OpenPandora GmbH.


OpenPandora GmbH is working without any issues and the next batch of Pandoras is planned and will be produced.


There are no money issues here, and I only had about 20 refunds within the last year, so I don't expect that many (I have less than 300 preorders left).


The issue is that OpenPandora Ltd. used the money from the 1GHz units for refunds and wasn't able to pay the first batch of 1GHz units I sent.


Craig probably assumed that I can hold on that money for a while longer and could send him more units on my costs. However, I can't do that if I want to keep the production running.


So OpenPandora GmbH is fine, but OpenPandora Ltd. currently does not have the funds to pay for the production of 1GHz units.
 

Mr_Loon

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I wasn't real clear on what the business plan actually said, it wasn't spelled out that clearly (especially if you read the goals section in the plan), but thats just me. Thats why I posted - as you quoted - that as a question. Basically if it didn't include the money required to clear pre-orders, it should have, that is what I was trying to say in that point.

What the investment plan was 100% clear on was that investment was in Open Pandora GmbH and not Open Pandora Ltd, thus there could, and should, be no way that investors were going to clear pre orders made with Open Pandora Ltd. EDIT : Reading ED's post above, it seems I've got that bit wrong.


People have to understand that Open Pandora GmbH & Open Pandora Ltd are totally separate entities. Any confusion relating to this, especially from new visitors / those who have not closely followed the project is entirely understandable.


From my perspective one of the big challenges facing the Pandora project at the moment are the practical ramifications of the fact that Open Pandora GmbH & Open Pandora Ltd are two separate businesses.


Take for instance this entirely hypothetical situation :


ED Decides that sales of the 1Ghz Pandora are not moving fast enough and decides to reduce the price to €599 (from €666) with units available from stock, this would probably lead to a significant number of people who were waiting for a 1Ghz unit from Craig to simply cancel their order and buy one from ED instead. This would of course apply to classic & rebirth Pandoras as well if we saw a future reduction in price for those units.


I'm sure that Craig & ED are not operating as some kind of cartel with price fixing etc. as that would be at best, slightly dubious, under EU competition law, but I'm equally sure that they are not operating as competitors in the normal business sense of the word.


To me a big question is : Which market should Open Pandora Ltd be serving? i.e. UK only? USA & UK? Global? etc.


Without knowing how many, and what kind of, pre Orders Craig has left to fulfil it is pretty hard to give any help or advice as to how this backlog should be cleared.


_______________________________________


@ Craig : Many thanks for your clear and open communications regarding the current situation & future efforts to fulfil your pre orders, this should win you a lot of respect from some and forgiveness from others. With that spirit in mind do you think you could find the time to answer a few questions :


1) Some people are saying you should sue CC, why not do this on a no win no fee basis if you have a strong case and cannot afford the initial and probably huge legal fees? This is assuming that you had a clear written contract with CC and of course that this contract has been breached, if that is not the case then you can of course forget any legal avenues of gaining compensation.


2) From my understanding CC still have in their possession a large quantity of classic Pandora boards, is my understanding correct? If that is the case then why not get them back and see what can be salvaged & sold?


3) What do you want from your customers who are waiting for units they have pre ordered? There is some confusion especially regarding those who ordered classic CC Pandoras if the best thing for the project would be if they cancelled their orders.
 
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