The case of the case.


Well, most 3D printers are not accurate enough for testing, which is why I have it printed by a company.

Each full case set is 150 EUR and takes two weeks.
From my amateur point of view I would just say: price may be OK but takes way to long for such an print, but I'm not an 3D print expert. ^^" At least the case seems to have a quiet good quality for an 3D print. Looks like stereo lithography.
Because we're not the only customer of that company - we need to get a free slot.

Populating 500 Pandora PCBs at Global Components also only takes a day, but when I order them, it can take weeks until they got a free machine slot for me, as they've got other products as well.

The gaming controls of the Pandora are perfect, and that's what we'll almost keep 1:1.
I agree, nothing to complain there but I suggest to not glue the D-pad onto the keymat this time. ;)
That's already planned.
 
That mapping makes the least possible of all of them, only one nub direction can be pressed at once.  Lots of the games I've played have involved pressing more than one button at once.  Not mentioning moving the nub feeling ickily different from pressing and holding down a button because for all I know everyone else in the world thinks otherwise.
I don't recall any n64 game that required any of the c-buttons being hit at the same time.
Special moves in Bio Freaks is still the first thing that comes to my mind, but that doesn't matter that much, there's a Playstation version.  While using the bow in Zelda Ocarina of Time, after you've drawn an arrow by pressing and holding the C button, you must press B while that C button is held down in order to release the bow without letting loose the arrow.  And yep, using a nub for the buttons doesn't only prevent you from pressing more than one nub button at once, it prevents you from pressing any of the other four game buttons without releasing it.  Using the nub for some of the buttons is terrible.
 
And money is something we don't have, which is exactly why we chose to keep the good things and improve what can be improved. So there will be no major redesign of the case and no experiments. The gaming controls of the Pandora are perfect, and that's what we'll almost keep 1:1. That's also why I'm pretty careful about changing the action button layout and did add two small buttons at a place where they don't get in the way, without changing the main buttons.
Once again ED, you have showed your wisdom. 

-Glyph Reader
 
Special moves in Bio Freaks is still the first thing that comes to my mind, but that doesn't matter that much, there's a Playstation version.  While using the bow in Zelda Ocarina of Time, after you've drawn an arrow by pressing and holding the C button, you must press B while that C button is held down in order to release the bow without letting loose the arrow.  And yep, using a nub for the buttons doesn't only prevent you from pressing more than one nub button at once, it prevents you from pressing any of the other four game buttons without releasing it.  Using the nub for some of the buttons is terrible.
It's not like you can't map both the nub and some buttons to the C buttons at the same time. Or you know, have different configurations depending on the game.
 
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I agree, nothing to complain there but I suggest to not glue the D-pad onto the keymat this time. ;)
Hmm.. isn't this the very reason why Pandora Dpad is the best around?
I am rather curious (and wary) about that point.

I never had a problem with my Pandora's D-Pad and I like the feel of it. Did other people have problems or is this just a matter of personal taste and wanting the D-Pad to feel more like the action buttons?
 
Umm... you did notice that the current discussion was to add a few mm to the width of the case to easily add more buttons...?

If you change the width of the case, you need to change the PCB as well.
I totally understand not wanting to increase the width of the device. However, that is not a good reason to deny changing the layout at all. As has been mentioned by many people, and then proven through my mockups, it is possible to do a viable 6-button layout either by moving the nubs inward (thus not increasing the width of the device) or by decreasing the size of the buttons. In fact, there should be a happy medium that is between the "extra" button size and the main button size that would work for all 6 buttons.

The gaming controls of the Pandora are perfect, and that's what we'll almost keep 1:1.
Except they are not. That's why you were adding extra shoulder buttons. Because you, as a PSX gamer, wanted a more PSX-friendly layout. And we are merely asking that you do the same for us with the 6-button layout. I have even made sure to include the cross-design in the layouts I have suggested, so as not to cause problems for those who are used to it who grew up w/ a SNES or PSX.

That's also why I'm pretty careful about changing the action button layout and did add two small buttons at a place where they don't get in the way, without changing the main buttons.
That's exactly what's causing this problem. You are not trying to accomodate a 6-button layout at all. Adding those 2 buttons where you did leaves us in just as bad of a situation as we were when we were having to use the O and P buttons for N64 emulation. It sucked. 

God Ginrai
 
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I suspect that I'm the only person who actually likes the Pandora's shape. :(
Nope, I like it too.
Make that three
I totally understand not wanting to increase the width of the device. However, that is not a good reason to deny changing the layout at all. As has been mentioned by many people, and then proven through my mockups, it is possible to do a viable 6-button layout either by moving the nubs inward (thus not increasing the width of the device) or by decreasing the size of the buttons. In fact, there should be a happy medium that is between the "extra" button size and the main button size that would work for all 6 buttons.
I would rather have the nubs moved slightly to the center then smaller buttons, but then again I do not have a real "need" for six buttons anyway.
 
 
The gaming controls of the Pandora are perfect, and that's what we'll almost keep 1:1.
Except they are not. That's why you were adding extra shoulder buttons. Because you, as a PSX gamer, wanted a more PSX-friendly layout. And we are merely asking that you do the same for us with the 6-button layout. I have even made sure to include the cross-design in the layouts I have suggested, so as not to cause problems for those who are used to it who grew up w/ a SNES or PSX.
Why is everyone so focused on emulation? I don't care about PlayStation or Nintendo or Sega. I want the extra shoulder buttons for Alt and Fn/Meta, and I want the extra action buttons to complete the Home/End/PgUp/PgDn block with Insert/Delete.
 
That's also why I'm pretty careful about changing the action button layout and did add two small buttons at a place where they don't get in the way, without changing the main buttons.
That's exactly what's causing this problem. You are not trying to accomodate a 6-button layout at all. Adding those 2 buttons where you did leaves us in just as bad of a situation as we were when we were having to use the O and P buttons for N64 emulation. It sucked. 

God Ginrai
You used O and P for them too?  I think we're even worse off now, because O and P aren't as accessible as they were on the Pandora, now using them is quite a twist.

I don't know of a large enough specific use for the two new buttons as and where they are now.  They'll be a lot harder to use for N64 games than O and P were, but I think that requests for six buttons for that purpose are the only reason they were added.  If their placement nulls that purpose, (isn't any more comfortable) then adding them doesn't sound like it was worthwhile.  Sure we can make up some uses for them later, but nothing is asking for these buttons this way. 

I respect the difficulty posed by changing things again, having people make new models and possibly even having to wait another month before receiving the device we'll probably keep all our lives, but more than feeling lowly to back away from any more proposals, I kind of want to question ED choosing this new nothing else layout in the first place, and setting everything in place before telling us.  I'm trying not to sound like I believe I'm entitled to anything, but to point out that of course we were going to complain about the button change which was made in order to please us not being of any help.  The only things in its favor I've heard of are it already being implemented and it not getting in the way.  Having a sad, a confused circular one.
 
Hey here is an excellent idea for a case:

Pok%C3%A9dex_GenI_Kanto.png


Classic! haha. The perfect Pyra, and it's red too :)

Just messing, I couldn't help myself :lol:
 
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Umm... you did notice that the current discussion was to add a few mm to the width of the case to easily add more buttons...?

If you change the width of the case, you need to change the PCB as well.
I totally understand not wanting to increase the width of the device. However, that is not a good reason to deny changing the layout at all. As has been mentioned by many people, and then proven through my mockups, it is possible to do a viable 6-button layout either by moving the nubs inward (thus not increasing the width of the device) or by decreasing the size of the buttons. In fact, there should be a happy medium that is between the "extra" button size and the main button size that would work for all 6 buttons.
A mockup is no proof.

A proof is something you can hold physically in your hands and test it.

Not just printed on a piece of paper, but test it for real, as it can feel very different when actuall used for gaming.

The gaming controls of the Pandora are perfect, and that's what we'll almost keep 1:1.
Except they are not. That's why you were adding extra shoulder buttons. Because you, as a PSX gamer, wanted a more PSX-friendly layout.
Nope. I don't care about four shoulder buttons, I don't even like shoulder buttons at all (they're a bit uncomfortable for me).

I mostly play SNES, Amiga, C64 and Genesis games on the Pandora.

And PSX RPGs.

There's not a single game that comes to my mind where I would need four shoulder buttons.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but I didn't do it for personal preference.

The reason I changed to four shoulder buttons was because it was a community request that existed before we even started Pyra development, so it didn't add any design time or costs.

Askarus showed with his Pandora mod with a real working unit (not a mockup) that it's possible to have four shoulder buttons without any negative effects.

It does not change the playability of any current emulator or game, it just ADDS something.

So it was a no-brainer to add them.

And we are merely asking that you do the same for us with the 6-button layout. I have even made sure to include the cross-design in the layouts I have suggested, so as not to cause problems for those who are used to it who grew up w/ a SNES or PSX.
This is totally different to the shoulder buttons.

You can't tell for sure the additional buttons don't get in the way or confuse gamers unless you actually TRY them.

And that's the difference with the L/R buttons. I could test them and know they won't get in your way.

4-button controllers are standard.

Almost every standard video game console uses 4 buttons, sometimes with some additional small buttons (like black and white on the XBox).

Only some arcade games and the Sega Saturn have six-button controllers (or are there more I don't know of?) 

The Genesis / MegaDrive got a six button controller later, but very few games except for fighting games actually made use of it.

Most games use the standard 3-button setup.

Have you ever seen a thread here where many users complain that Picodrive is no fun because the Pandora only has four buttons?

So lets compare:

4 Shoulder buttons:

* Request was made multiple times before the design stage

* Modification exists that proofs it can be done and has no negative impacts

* Useful also as modifier keys, not only for gaming

6-Buttons:

* Request was made when the case / PCB design was almost finished (changing causes delays and adds costs)

* No way to easily test any possible impacts in usability exists

* Not really useful outside of gaming, and only a couple of games really need 6 buttons (so it doesn't add much).

See the difference here and why I easily chose 4 shoulder buttons but am very careful with 6 face buttons?

You are welcome to modify a Pandora and hack a working 6-button control together and send it to me to show it works without any downsides though.

That's also why I'm pretty careful about changing the action button layout and did add two small buttons at a place where they don't get in the way, without changing the main buttons.
That's exactly what's causing this problem. You are not trying to accomodate a 6-button layout at all. Adding those 2 buttons where you did leaves us in just as bad of a situation as we were when we were having to use the O and P buttons for N64 emulation. It sucked.
That's your personal opinion, but I didn't see much backup for that claim from a lot of users from the community, except for a few ones.

If you really think almost every user wants this, we can do poll.

For N64 emulating: I never had many issues with non-N64 controllers on emulation, what games are there that need all the buttons to be playable?

You have two more shoulder buttons now, so you could map certain functions there as well.

You used O and P for them too?  I think we're even worse off now, because O and P aren't as accessible as they were on the Pandora, now using them is quite a twist.
Ummm...while they're not O and P (but part of the number row), they're in the exact same distance from the buttons as they were before...?

I don't know of a large enough specific use for the two new buttons as and where they are now.  They'll be a lot harder to use for N64 games than O and P were, but I think that requests for six buttons for that purpose are the only reason they were added.
Well, I think I'd use them for start and select when emulating games.

Some games like Super Mario World actively use the Select button for game-playing (not only menu navigation), and the middle position is a bit hard to use.

Also, I'd use them for N64 games and map functions you don't need that often in a game (like camera switching or showing a map, e.g.)

So I think they are useful, but I know 100% they don't change the usability of the four main facebuttons.

I respect the difficulty posed by changing things again, having people make new models and possibly even having to wait another month before receiving the device we'll probably keep all our lives, but more than feeling lowly to back away from any more proposals, I kind of want to question ED choosing this new nothing else layout in the first place, and setting everything in place before telling us.  I'm trying not to sound like I believe I'm entitled to anything, but to point out that of course we were going to complain about the button change which was made in order to please us not being of any help.  The only things in its favor I've heard of are it already being implemented and it not getting in the way.  Having a sad, a confused circular one.
I always followed Pandora discussions and improvement ideas.

I never saw a single thread about six buttons, but multiple requests for four shoulder buttons.

And still I don't see many community members supporting it, except a couple.

The Pyra was revealed February 1st. When did the 6-button layout discussion start?
 
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There's not a single game that comes to my mind where I would need four shoulder buttons.
Actually Metal Gear Solid on PS1, and Ape Escape (if my memory is correct on that one) both require 4 shoulder buttons. That being said, MGS1 is perfectly playable if you assign other keys from the Pandora keyboard to take that role. Not ideal, but it works well enough.  

I agree with the rest you said - 4 full sized buttons would be far enough in most situations, and if the nubs can't be moved further inside more without causing trouble or being uncomfortable to use, we'd better stay with your proposition. 

I want the extra shoulder buttons for Alt and Fn/Meta, and I want the extra action buttons to complete the Home/End/PgUp/PgDn block with Insert/Delete.
Indeed,they will serve that purpose as well. More buttons are welcome for everything else.  
 
Umm... you did notice that the current discussion was to add a few mm to the width of the case to easily add more buttons...? If you change the width of the case, you need to change the PCB as well.
Why would increasing the width of the case to improve ergonomics necessarily mean that the PCB had to be changed? I can of course see why decreasing the width would lead to a redesign.

From a personal perspective I'd rather see the Pyra case design leaning towards being comfortable to use for extended periods as a handheld rather than be as small and as pocketable as possible. It's appreciated that I may well be in the minority here.

In general terms there may be some benefits in making the case a little bigger than initially appears necessary, this would allow additional design flexibility for future models which could use the same case. I'm specifically thinking about the screen if the chosen screen becomes difficult to source and a suitable replacement was perhaps 1 or 2 mm larger then having that extra size could be a real boon.
 
Umm... you did notice that the current discussion was to add a few mm to the width of the case to easily add more buttons...? If you change the width of the case, you need to change the PCB as well.
Why would increasing the width of the case to improve ergonomics necessarily mean that the PCB had to be changed? I can of course see why decreasing the width would lead to a redesign.
If the width increases without repositioning the keys, you're not improving ergonomics, but moving all keys a bit to the center which makes it harder to press them.
 
I agree, nothing to complain there but I suggest to not glue the D-pad onto the keymat this time. ;)
 Hmm.. isn't this the very reason why Pandora Dpad is the best around?
It's more like shape, fitting, resistance of the rubber mat etc. No need to glue it on imho. If you glue it onto the rubber mat it raises one side ofthe rubber up if you pus the other side down. And it makes it hard to replace the mat or D-pad. I imagine this will be more easy onto the Pyra. If the fitting is good, no need to glue the D-Pad on and yo ustill have a excellent Pad. :)
 
Askarus showed with his Pandora mod with a real working unit (not a mockup) that it's possible to have four shoulder buttons without any negative effects.
Awesome.

I really did something for the Pyra.

:)

Anyways, the n64 argument doesn't work here.

The current case has 6 Gaming buttons.

So you don't have to use any keyboard Key any more.

Pressing the A/B button and a C Button at the same time on the N64 isn't that easy.


Don't think game do require that.

So for camera we can use the Nub as C-Buttons and for games that need them for other actions we can use the 4 remaining action buttons, the remaining shoulder buttons and the Keyboard.

Even if a Saturn layout would be better I still see no need for it.

Also the Saturn does not have 4 shoulder buttons.

I don't see any button combination you can't perform with 4 Shoulder buttons and 4 (6 non original) action buttons.

Ok, it doesn't feel the same but it doesn't make things impossible to play.

if time and money is as short as EvilDragon says let's make the best possible out of the Pyra we have now.

Let's make a lot of money and then in some years there can still be a revision of the case.

Personally I would print the Saturn Keyboard version as well.

But if EvilDragon says it will delay too much and add lots of costs then I don't want to risk any thing.

If I like it or not: The Pyra's development resources are short.

Better get a great device than a perfect one that will fail in the end.

+ 2 Shoulder buttons

+ 2 (non standard) face buttons

+ 2 Nub Buttons

... do increase things a lot.
 
Askarus showed with his Pandora mod with a real working unit (not a mockup) that it's possible to have four shoulder buttons without any negative effects.
Awesome.

I really did something for the Pyra.

:)

Anyways, the n64 argument doesn't work here.

The current case has 6 Gaming buttons.

So you don't have to use any keyboard Key any more.

Pressing the A/B button and a C Button at the same time on the N64 isn't that easy.

Don't think game do require that.

So for camera we can use the Nub as C-Buttons and for games that need them for other actions we can use the 4 remaining action buttons, the remaining shoulder buttons and the Keyboard.

Even if a Saturn layout would be better I still see no need for it.

Also the Saturn does not have 4 shoulder buttons.

I don't see any button combination you can't perform with 4 Shoulder buttons and 4 (6 non original) action buttons.

Ok, it doesn't feel the same but it doesn't make things impossible to play.

if time and money is as short as EvilDragon says let's make the best possible out of the Pyra we have now.

Let's make a lot of money and then in some years there can still be a revision of the case.

Personally I would print the Saturn Keyboard version as well.

But if EvilDragon says it will delay too much and add lots of costs then I don't want to risk any thing.

If I like it or not: The Pyra's development resources are short.

Better get a great device than a perfect one that will fail in the end.

+ 2 Shoulder buttons

+ 2 (non standard) face buttons

+ 2 Nub Buttons

... do increase things a lot.
Well said.  Now that I think about it, we don't need the buttons to be in the sega layout.  While I would love that, I would rather not cause ED more stress then necessary.  

-Glyph Reader
 
A mockup is no proof.

A proof is something you can hold physically in your hands and test it.

Not just printed on a piece of paper, but test it for real, as it can feel very different when actuall used for gaming.
And you are the only person with all of the resources needed to do just that. That is why we are trying to convince you to test this. Would it help if we voted on an alternative for you to test? If so, I can make that mid-size button mockup I had mentioned before, and put my 3 mockups, along w/ some of the other 6-button mockups up for vote on Saturday. (Out of town right now, don't get back until the end of the week)

Nope. I don't care about four shoulder buttons, I don't even like shoulder buttons at all (they're a bit uncomfortable for me).

I mostly play SNES, Amiga, C64 and Genesis games on the Pandora.

And PSX RPGs.

There's not a single game that comes to my mind where I would need four shoulder buttons.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but I didn't do it for personal preference.

The reason I changed to four shoulder buttons was because it was a community request that existed before we even started Pyra development, so it didn't add any design time or costs.

Askarus showed with his Pandora mod with a real working unit (not a mockup) that it's possible to have four shoulder buttons without any negative effects.

It does not change the playability of any current emulator or game, it just ADDS something.

So it was a no-brainer to add them.
 Ok, I was mistaken and thought that you had wanted the dual shoulders. Sorry about that.

Almost every standard video game console uses 4 buttons, sometimes with some additional small buttons (like black and white on the XBox).
The original Xbox controller arranged those black and white buttons in a traditional 6-button layout. Even that would be better than the layout you are currently proposing.

Only some arcade games and the Sega Saturn have six-button controllers (or are there more I don't know of?)
The Nintendo 64, off the top of my head.

The Genesis / MegaDrive got a six button controller later, but very few games except for fighting games actually made use of it.
I gave you a list of the Genesis/MD games that used the 6-button controller. The majority of those were not fighting games.

Have you ever seen a thread here where many users complain that Picodrive is no fun because the Pandora only has four buttons?
I would never complain to a developer about something that was beyond their control. I doubt much other people would complain to Notaz that his emulator sucks because the Pandora doesn't have the correct layout.

* Request was made when the case / PCB design was almost finished (changing causes delays and adds costs)
Wrong. We were having arguments between those for 4 shoulders and those for 6 face buttons since back in the "Our New Machine" topic. It was known long before you were even considering the Pyra that we wanted 6 face buttons.

* No way to easily test any possible impacts in usability exists
But you could surely test one or two designs without too much of an impact, shouldn't you?

* Not really useful outside of gaming, and only a couple of games really need 6 buttons (so it doesn't add much).
It is useful out of gaming. It adds extra keycodes for those people who wanted more keys for the keyboard. And as I've pointed out, it's not just Sega Saturn. The N64 also had 6 buttons.

You are welcome to modify a Pandora and hack a working 6-button control together and send it to me to show it works without any downsides though.
If I could, I would. I am not skilled at modifications. I'm doing the best thing I can do, which is to make mockups.

If you really think almost every user wants this, we can do poll.
I'll get the poll ready on Saturday.

Ummm...while they're not O and P (but part of the number row), they're in the exact same distance from the buttons as they were before...?
 Yea, but now they are half as large, and surrounded by other keys.

And still I don't see many community members supporting it, except a couple.
You've seen much more than a couple of community members in this topic alone.

-God Ginrai
 
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