Gp2x Vs Psp Emulation As Of Now...


rokdcasbah

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Anhaedra posted on Feb 9 2007 at 12:35 AM said:
Which is better clock for clock, MIPS or ARM9?

it really depends on what you do with them, and which chip. but in general MIPS is used in higher-end stuff whereas ARMs are used where costs need to be lower, or energy consumption, or both.
 
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messiah

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ARM gives overall more power for clock than MIPS. And ARM is low-energy friendly.
So ARM920T should be better CPU than R3000 in psx. But... PSP is also dual-cpu. Second R3000 works as graphics core.
 

Mudi

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^^ That's just not really true...

The PSP has a separate graphics core. The two CPU cores in the PSP have the same problems in making them work together the GP2X does.
 

Exophase

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For all the people saying PSP ghosts terribly, you should hear this (especially you, DaveC)

In gpSP around version 0.8 I was testing Breath of Fire 2, on the overworld near the beginning (when it's night time and raining) there are a lot of dark colors. When scrolling the screen ghosted so terribly that it basically looked to be about half intensity because the black outlines were blending with everything else. I had witnessed the same effect in NES and PCEngine emulators. Since the beginning I had been complaining about this defect in PSP's screens.

Then, after implementing vsync in 0.9, I was testing the game again. Now when I scrolled outside I could only barely notice ghosting; it was incredibly faint (that is, the screen appeared to become very slightly darker). I'm not sure I would have ever noticed it if I didn't know to look for it.

So it seems to me that adding vsync greatly diminished the problem (in addition to removing tearing). But for vsync to make sense the emulator can't be skipping any frames, so I'm sure that any sensible emulator that implements it (if it implements it correctly at all) will only do so when frameskip is off, including auto frameskip.

You can argue with me on this, I could be wrong, but I checked pretty carefully, even going back to look at an older version to confirm this. I don't see what other explanation there could be. Since this is an LCD refresh delay issue it'd make sense that writing during vertical retrace could improve it. So if I'm right then that means stop complaining about PSP's screen and complain about the people doing shoddy ports without paying attention to these things.

And seriously DaveC, everyone knows you hate filtering and think it makes games unplayable. And yet most of us have played these games (sans the handheld ones) on murderously blurry old TVs from ages past. You don't understand how bilinear filtering can improve screen quality? Some games have limited color spaces and thus suffer from very harsh contrast, it's why NES games look blockier than SNES ones despite being the same resolution (generally). Filtering can improve this harshness, giving the same effect seen on TVs; I personally couldn't ever stand how blocky NES emulators look on PCs when fullscreen without any kind of filtering. On the other hand, bilinear filtering diminishes contrast and saturation when you do want it, and makes the entire thing look significantly more washed out. It'd be great if there was bicubic filtering instead. And I think it's amazing that you talk about PS1 and Genesis being too small when 1:1 on PSP, when it probably uses more screen real estate (in actual inch measurement) than GBA does 1:1 on GP2X, and you've never complained about that.

To those people asking about gpSP and GBA emulation in this thread: as you can see zodttd is working on the dynarec now. I wanted to, but I've been having trouble with my GP2X because the SD slot is broken. As you all know, this is a known common defect in the latest batch and I didn't contact the (very kind) individual who donated it to me about it because I was flat out told that GPH wouldn't replace it. Frankly, this kind of treatment from the company who makes this hardware makes me somewhat less willing to work on it. So I got the tools to open it and bend the pin back, but it still doesn't work. Nonetheless, I was resigned to try developing within the NAND space, but I still lacked a mini-USB B cable (yes, even for PSP dev, which I haven't done any of recently either). I have the cable now, but what I don't have is an AC adapter; sorry, there's no way I'm going to fiddle with batteries with something I have no intentions of ever using as an actual portable (I don't care what any of you say about AA's being superior, I think you're out of your minds). That and I'm not looking forward to fiddling with devkitarm (which I have for GBA dev) to convince it to build for GP2X. Sadly I really have no time, at all, my course/work load is getting me down, plus trying to get work and other big real life issues makes me a much busier person than I was a few months ago. The days just keep passing by and I'm not able to focus much, although I really wanted to work on this.

But of course, zodttd decided to pick it up (albiet without contacting me until now, shame shame :p) so I'll try to help him get that rolled out smoothly.

Chances are pretty likely that it can run most games well on GP2X when it's all said and done.

messiah; I think you're using the wrong BIOS, which is why Yoshi's Island wouldn't work for you. *wink* But, who says ARM gives much more power per clock than MIPS? The instructions are more powerful, yes, but you pay for that power with extra cycles when you use it (not always, but often). And MIPS has over twice the number of useable registers. ARM is probably a little better for some tasks (especially with a lot of shifts or array indexing), for others they're probably about the same.

Mudi; PSP doesn't have the same problems GP2X has with its two cores. The second core has much more cache on PSP (the normal 16/16KB) and it has a dedicated 2MB of eDRAM on top of that....
 

Mudi

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Heh, that's just what I'd heard, I fully admit to having no PSP devving experience.

That's irritating to hear that no one will replace your GP2X, I haven't actually heard of any recent units having trouble with the SD slot... but I haven't been paying the attention I should, so have I missed it?
 

Perseid

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Exophase posted on Feb 14 2007 at 06:31 AM said:
For all the people saying PSP ghosts terribly, you should hear this (especially you, DaveC)

You can argue with me on this, I could be wrong, but I checked pretty carefully, even going back to look at an older version to confirm this. I don't see what other explanation there could be. Since this is an LCD refresh delay issue it'd make sense that writing during vertical retrace could improve it. So if I'm right then that means stop complaining about PSP's screen and complain about the people doing shoddy ports without paying attention to these things.

That would make sense. Some commercial PSP games ghost terribly, while others don't seem to at all. UMDs don't seem to ghost either.
 
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gaterooze

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Exophase posted on Feb 14 2007 at 06:31 AM said:
I've been having trouble with my GP2X because the SD slot is broken. As you all know, this is a known common defect in the latest batch and I didn't contact the (very kind) individual who donated it to me about it because I was flat out told that GPH wouldn't replace it.

All the distributors have been replacing the dodgy SD units, so I imagine GPH are taking them back for repair from them. Who donated the unit?

GPH are fools if they won't replace it for you (well, we all know they're fools anyway). Your work would sell a truckload of GP2X's.
 
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EvilDragon

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Exophase posted on Feb 14 2007 at 07:31 AM said:
I wanted to, but I've been having trouble with my GP2X because the SD slot is broken. As you all know, this is a known common defect in the latest batch and I didn't contact the (very kind) individual who donated it to me about it because I was flat out told that GPH wouldn't replace it.

... but you DO remember I offered fixing it for you including paying all the shipment costs, right?
I've now fixed about 15 of them, takes about 5 - 10 minutes...
 
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DaveC

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Exophase posted on Feb 14 2007 at 06:31 AM said:
For all the people saying PSP ghosts terribly, you should hear this (especially you, DaveC)

In gpSP around version 0.8 I was testing Breath of Fire 2, on the overworld near the beginning (when it's night time and raining) there are a lot of dark colors. When scrolling the screen ghosted so terribly that it basically looked to be about half intensity because the black outlines were blending with everything else. I had witnessed the same effect in NES and PCEngine emulators. Since the beginning I had been complaining about this defect in PSP's screens.

Then, after implementing vsync in 0.9, I was testing the game again. Now when I scrolled outside I could only barely notice ghosting; it was incredibly faint (that is, the screen appeared to become very slightly darker). I'm not sure I would have ever noticed it if I didn't know to look for it.

And seriously DaveC, everyone knows you hate filtering and think it makes games unplayable. And yet most of us have played these games (sans the handheld ones) on murderously blurry old TVs from ages past. You don't understand how bilinear filtering can improve screen quality?

And I think it's amazing that you talk about PS1 and Genesis being too small when 1:1 on PSP, when it probably uses more screen real estate (in actual inch measurement) than GBA does 1:1 on GP2X, and you've never complained about that.

As you all know, this is a known common defect in the latest batch and I didn't contact the (very kind) individual who donated it to me about it because I was flat out told that GPH wouldn't replace it. Frankly, this kind of treatment from the company who makes this hardware makes me somewhat less willing to work on it. So I got the tools to open it and bend the pin back, but it still doesn't work

Well I notice the ghosting not only in emus but also in many commercial games as well. If it is that finicky where you have to tune stuff so precisely then alot of things will continue to do it. I notice a color shift in almost everything when the screen moves no matter what it is. Things that are green will shift to brown etc.

No, I don't unsderstand how distorting things by stretching things out then adding a level of muddy blur to blend any detail into a smeary mess looks good. Not on screens of this size and resolution. (the more resolution you have over native the less muddy it looks). I guess I am a bit of a "special case" as I had all of my consoles, including Genesis, SNES, PS1, Saturn etc connected to an RGB Amiga monitor with RGB SCART cables I hacked together. These systems always looked sharp for me. I only used the fuzzy RF connections on old systems like 2600, ColecoVision. Filtering is fine for a big PC screen that is many times larger and has alot more res to work with then these small portables. Sorry but I never had a TV that was THAT bad. No matter what anyone says I still think it looks awful on a screen this size, that is my opinion. Sorry but I like the sharper display. These small screens aren't big enough to make things look blocky (unlike a PC), the pixels are too small.

I complain about the smaller image size at 1:1 on the PSP because it is quite a bit smaller than the image on the GP2X at 1:1. Why would I want to play a game with a small image if I don't have to? I would like the image to be as large as possible at 1:1. On the PSP I would have to stretch and filter to get the same sized (but sharper) image that I have now at 1:1 on the GP2X. The PSP is not optimal for 1:1 screens in emulation because of the oddball (for emus) resolution and aspect for me.

As far as being out of our minds about the batteries that is your opinion but there are advantages. They are way more flexible than some custom battery that can only be purchased in limited places for more money. Plus if you are not near a power source to keep charging you can always get a set of AA batteries anywhere and swap out as needed. It is maybe not an issue for the PSP as it is not like Sony is going under leaving you with a system that you can't get replacement batteries for. For a niche device like the GP2X it would be a disaster to use some custom battery that you can only get from them. Could prove hard, or impossible, to get them down the road leaving you with a brick.

I know you like the PSP best and that is fine. You don't mind the blurryness etc so you are all set with PSP. All of these things have their plusses and minuses, I guess it comes down to what you like, or which flaw bothers you most etc. I still don't think there is a "perfect " portable for everyone. What is one man's junk is another man's treasure.

As far as the busted GP2X there are many ways around it. This community is very helpful and you will find that many of us are willing to help here. Just ask and we will see what can be done. I am sure one of us would be willing to fix it up. See ED above. You have nothing to lose.
 
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Exophase

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EvilDragon posted on Feb 14 2007 at 02:27 PM said:
Exophase posted on Feb 14 2007 at 07:31 AM said:
I wanted to, but I've been having trouble with my GP2X because the SD slot is broken. As you all know, this is a known common defect in the latest batch and I didn't contact the (very kind) individual who donated it to me about it because I was flat out told that GPH wouldn't replace it.

... but you DO remember I offered fixing it for you including paying all the shipment costs, right?
I've now fixed about 15 of them, takes about 5 - 10 minutes...

Yes, I already sent you a PM back about it, and have been waiting for another response :( Like I said, I already bent the pin back and it still doesn't work, I might have broken it :p But at this point, if you wanna take a stab at it I can send it. You can talk to me on AIM/MSN sometime, right?
 
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DaveC

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Perseid posted on Feb 14 2007 at 06:47 AM said:
Exophase posted on Feb 14 2007 at 06:31 AM said:
For all the people saying PSP ghosts terribly, you should hear this (especially you, DaveC)

You can argue with me on this, I could be wrong, but I checked pretty carefully, even going back to look at an older version to confirm this. I don't see what other explanation there could be. Since this is an LCD refresh delay issue it'd make sense that writing during vertical retrace could improve it. So if I'm right then that means stop complaining about PSP's screen and complain about the people doing shoddy ports without paying attention to these things.

That would make sense. Some commercial PSP games ghost terribly, while others don't seem to at all. UMDs don't seem to ghost either.

I think the problem is with the crystals themselves changing position too slow. It could also be that the crystal position is drastic from ON to OFF. This would make sense as the PSP screen does have good contrast. Because of this the crystal has a long twist from light to dark and it takes extra time to move to those positions (this is why LCD response times can vary when measured grey to grey vs black to black). This also would explain why dark and saturated color has the most problems. With those the crystal is at the extremes. This is why more washed out colors don't ghost as bad, the crystals have less of an angle to travel. A fix would be to limit the contrast more but while fixing the ghosting, it would make the colors more washed out, and the colors and black level not as deep. A good balance may be reached though, could even be a setting.

I am not sure why Exophase's experiment with v-sync seems to reduce ghosting. I would like to see an actual example of that on mine. Not that I don't believe it but because it would be interesting to see how it works. I thought all v-sync did was to wait until the frame was completely rendered before displaying, to eliminate screen tearing.

Wouldn't limiting the framerate to 30 FPS reduce ghosting? At this rate it would give the screen a chance to catch up before displaying the next image.

@ Exophase, don't take it the wrong way if I disagree with you on some things. Alot of it is personal preference. I think you are doing some amazing work for us here. Your help, even if by proxy through Zod' due to your busted GP2X, is appreciated. Thanks very much for all of your help. I hope the broken unit can be sorted too.
 
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DaveC posted on Feb 15 2007 at 11:32 AM said:
I am not sure why Exophase's experiment with v-sync seems to reduce ghosting. I would like to see an actual example of that on mine. Not that I don't believe it but because it would be interesting to see how it works. I thought all v-sync did was to wait until the frame was completely rendered before displaying, to eliminate screen tearing.
If you want to experiment, I suggest using the CPS1PSP/CPS2PSP emulators. They have easily accessible v-sync on/off.

DaveC posted on Feb 15 2007 at 11:32 AM said:
Wouldn't limiting the framerate to 30 FPS reduce ghosting? At this rate it would give the screen a chance to catch up before displaying the next image.

Yah for sure! Perhaps some commerical games do this already?
Most emulators can do this already! Set Frameskip=1 :)
Better still use v-sync and Frameskip=1 together!
 
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DaveC

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slaanesh posted on Feb 15 2007 at 03:17 AM said:
Yah for sure! Perhaps some commerical games do this already?
Most emulators can do this already! Set Frameskip=1 :)
Better still use v-sync and Frameskip=1 together!
Yeah I could try that. I have another way to eliminate ghosting in emulators, play them on the GP2X :p :ph34r:

(seriously, I could try the things you suggest just for to see the difference)
 
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Azure

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So, ignoring all the blurry screen/stretched image mumbo jumbo, the PSP is superior for Neo-Geo, CPS2/3, SNES, GBA, and PSX (I realize that the PSX emulation could be considered a below-the-belt hit, but I don't think it should be ignored)? I'm still debating with myself as to which handheld to get. I already had the GP2X once and sold it; I have to really read in between the lines of the posts praising the GP2X for its emulation as most of the time people make it out to be much better than it is (Which is no surprise considering what website is, and I don't blame them as there's nothing wrong with showing spirit for your handheld).

When I had the GP2X (Summer '06) I had a lot of troubles with GNGEO. A decent amount of games weren't full speed w/ sound at 22050 (Twinklestar Sprites and Pulstar come to mind; yes, I know the actual Neo had slowdowns with games like TSS, Metal Slug, etc.), getting games to work was a pain (I'm pretty sure I didn't have bad dumps as they've never failed me before), and the emu would crash frequently (Sometimes when loading games, but usually in the middle of playing after about ~10 minutes). I ran it at the normal clock speed and overclocked at ~270mhz. Have any of these issues been accounted for since then (I remember asking for help in the GNGEO thread but never getting any help, so I just gave up)?

What about current SNES emulation? People often use words and phrases with positive connotations and shape their thoughts in such a way to make SNES emulation a lot better than it actually is (Rather, I should say "was" as I have not tried the latest SNES emulator). I wish more people would just give you the real deal instead of saying things like "It's fully playable with full speed with sound! I don't see any slowdowns at all when overclocked to 300mhz! Most games are full speed with sound!" and so on and so forth. It was pretty bad when I got it, rather far from full speed with sound (of course, you have to play it overclocked as that's pretty much become the standard for benchmarking); only simple games like SMW actually seemed full speed with sound (Again, overclocked at ~270 mhz). How is it now (Seriously)? Could someone put up a new SNES emulation video on YouTube (The current ones are rather old and apparently don't reflect the current capabilities of SNES emulation on the GP2X)?

What about GB/GBC, NGPC, etc.? We cannot forget about these great handhelds. I heard the same propaganda language for these emulators as I heard for SNES. Are they "perfect" and polished or not (Let's please not bother with semantics either; I think we all have a good idea of what accounts for a "perfect" GB/GBC emulator)?

Someone (that isn't as obviously biased as people like DaveC) should really make a PSP vs. GP2X video that displays their respective emulation capabilities. I'm leaning towards the PSP at the moment since it appears to have much better emulation capabilities with regard to major systems (Major as in SNES, GBA, CPS2/3, PSX, etc.). I don't care who you are, you've gotta admit that the thought of full speed SNES, GBA, and PSX emulation on the go is quite tantalizing (Portable Final Fantasy Tactics...*Homer Simpson drool*).

I apologize if any of this came off as offensive or an attack on the GP2X or the GP32x community. This is a great place that offers a nice medium for intelligent (for the most part :p ) discussion of portable emulation. As I come to the conclusion of this post I question its purpose and meaning. The previous was just some cluttered thoughts of mine that for some reason I felt like posting (I don't even know why I still post around here). Since I don't want to feel like I just wasted 10 minutes of my life, I'll just hit the "Add Reply" button anyway and you guys can ignore this post if you feel like it :)
 

paxl13

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Get a PSP and It'll be bricked sometime by sony...

I hate to say it but I almost buyed one when the ps1 emulation has been out but after waiting in a store to some game to LOAD... like 3 min I said.. NO WAY, Ok playing backup from the Memory card...

Anyway, this is just my oppinion, I'm pretty happy with my gp2x. GnGeo is fullspeed 11050hz as long as you don't have a too much shitty sd card.

Again all of this is oppinon
paxl13
 

evol

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i don't get it why ask such a question on a GP2X forum ?? the result will be obvious (gp2x wins and PSP crowd gets angry)

and with one hand on the bible we all know PSP packs more punch in their emulators.

and the answer to the question "Gp2x Vs Psp Emulation As Of Now"

PSP=a few fullspeed emus
Gp2x=LOTs of emus with a few reaching fullspeed

take into account the massive file archive for Gp2x and compare how many emus we have. PSP dont have that because it,s a closed system. the gp2x have been out a year and it breathes it,s stronger cousin down the neck in terms of progress in the emulation department PSP has been out 4 years.

this tells me

1. our devs are godly
2. gp2x is catching up to PSP standards in terms of emulation
3. the 2 plattforms could benefit tremendously by cooperating

but just now gp2x has quantity and PSP has quality

and forgive me for being such a nosy bastard, but isn't there a good PSP forum/crowd/community where all things PSP can be talked about ? or are the PSP community full of underaged l337 speakers who don't care for their fellow man ?
 

reiboul

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evol posted on Feb 18 2007 at 01:54 AM said:
PSP has been out 4 years.

I don't know if I understood you, but if you're saying that PSP has out for 4 years, I highly doubt it ;)


*edit*
According to Wikipedia

PSP
Japan, December 1st 2004
USA : March 24 2005
Europe : September 1st 2005

GP2X : November 10 2005

That makes not much of a difference, especially for me living in Europe :)
 
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gaterooze

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Azure posted on Feb 17 2007 at 11:20 PM said:
So, ignoring all the blurry screen/stretched image mumbo jumbo, the PSP is superior for Neo-Geo, CPS2/3, SNES, GBA, and PSX

No, no, no, not for long, and yes.

To elucidate:

The latest CPS2 and Neo Geo emus are just as good on GP2X & PSP, it only comes down to what screen and controls you prefer (for both factors, I choose GP2X).

With a combination of the new DrPocketSNES and latest turbo-charged SquidgeSNES, SNES is now better on GP2X, and still improving weekly.

GBA is currently no contest, but it seems within a few weeks it will be equally good on GP2X with zodttd's dynarec and Exophase's assistance.

PSX will always be better on PSP. One day it may be quite playable on GP2X though, and since it would be a community made emu and not Sony's, the options for expansion are better. But that is pie in the sky stuff right now.
 
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Destructo2000

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Before today I hadn't really seen much as far as PSP emulation, but as I rode on a bus for 8 hours with my friend who so conviently has a PSP, I found out a lot. I was surprised that his SNES emulator as well as Genesis emulator ran slower. I could run my Genesis at 45 fps while underclocked at 160! His didn't even reach that speed at 333! His SNES emulator only ran better on one game that I noticed, and that was Bomberman 2, but hey, I wasn't paying attention the whole time. Obviously, the PSX and GBA ran better but that makes sense. The NES emulators were about the same, and I could only tell a difference with extreme underclocking, with the GP2X doing slightly better. The Game Gear/Master System emulator ran better on the GP2X as well, but again, this was only noticed with extreme underclocking. I didn't really go into that much with the other emulators, though the PC Engine seemed to run about the same as well as the lynx and gameboy/color. Oh yeah, most of the PSP emulators were forced to used frameskip, so even though the speed may have been higher, the image was choppier. So that's about all I figured out, but I was surprised because I thought that the PSP would be better. Score one for the GP2X! :)
 
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