How to calculate a price for the Pyra

[FaeMinx]

^ Yes, he had his own ideas and was adamant about pushing them on us, in spite of not being informed... seems he wasn't too interested in researching (or even discussing) why things are as they are....


So in my view he had no concideration for this project beyond how it could suit him.

 

[Klumpen]

Did you guys seriously discuss manufacturing costs with a reseller all this time?

One does not do such things! Merchants have never understood the whole process of actually creating things until they've become creators themselves.

 

[EvilDragon]

... which is probably the reason Craig ran into funding issues... sales price was way too low at the beginning.

 

[fusion_power]

... which is probably the reason Craig ran into funding issues... sales price was way too low at the beginning.

I payed 249€ preorder price for the classic Pandora. Must I feel guilty now? h34r:

 

[WizardStan]

I payed 249€ preorder price for the classic Pandora. Must I feel guilty now? h34r:

Yes, the failure is 100% your fault.Also every forest fire, Smokey himself said "only you can prevent" them. Get on that.

And the amount of trash going into the landfills? Why aren't you doing anything to stop it?

Feel the guilt!

 

[ZXDunny]

I feel awful about the £200 I paid for my Pandora. Truly devastated.

D.

 

[Grench]

I paid CIX ~$280 for my first batch reservation for my CC Pandora - which he delivered 2.5 years later.

Over the course of that wait I donated to the cause multiple times to the tune of ~$300.

Later I paid CIX ~$700 for my 1Ghz Pandora - which he delivered 3 months later.

Through the course of events I found out that CIX never did pay ED for the wholesale purchase.

So, I donated the manufacturing costs plus a bit to ED's efforts so that he was not out anything on -my- 1Ghz Pandora.

Although it was not my responsibility to make up to ED what CIX had pilfered, I still felt in some ways that my 1Ghz Pandora was more or less stolen prior to being sold to me.  I had the means so I fixed that in the method provided at the time.

Everyone should do what they feel is right.  There were mistakes made during the Pandora's production span.  Although it isn't us end-user's responsibility to fix it all, it still feels good to help.

 

[rygD]

I'm actually starting to enjoy this. I've never seen a punching bag come back time and again thinking it could win.

Spoiler

What I find interesting is that SoniX seems to be suggesting that EvilDragon doesn't know what he is doing.  I don't know how long he has had the shop, but it is longer than many businesses stick around.  He also pretty much rescued the Pandora and helped out many customers of another company by providing options so that they wouldn't completely lose the money they paid to that other company.  With the help of donations he provided some of those customers with Pandoras while he was under no obligation to do so.  I really doubt his day job would be enough to cover all the loss from the shop and these other ventures if he didn't know how to handle these things properly.  This shows me that he knows well enough how to run a business and manage stuff of this nature that he shouldn't be wasting his time bothering with explaining why or how he is doing things.  He has enough on his plate already.  This isn't how he does things, though.  ED wants to help people out, and he wants them to know what is going on behind the scenes.  It seems rude for some random internet person to try to dictate how he should be doing things for his project and his company when ED is trying to keep lines of communication open between himself and all interested parties.  Ultimately the Pyra and his business are his, and he can do things how he wants, yet he is allowing others to have a say in many more things then he needs to.  Why does his openness, honesty, and kindness need to be twisted to make him seem like he is either deceitful or doesn't know what he is doing?

Edit: Not sure why most of my post was missing.

 

[Chip]

^ Yes, he had his own ideas and was adamant about pushing them on us, in spite of not being informed... seems he wasn't too interested in researching (or even discussing) why things are as they are....


So in my view he had no concideration for this project beyond how it could suit him.

It's actually pretty understandable.  I mean he's wrong, but it's totally understandable why he's wrong.  Even with a lengthy and detailed post explaining all the costs involved, some people just can't get over the fact that you can buy something like a GPD XD (with a much better SoC) right now for likely well less than half of what the pyra will cost several months from now when preorders open up.  

There are perfectly good reasons why the pyra will cost more.  But it's possible for a rational person to be aware of those reasons, and not particularly care.  

If I were to have a local woodworker make me a bespoke set of dining room chairs, it would probably cost a few grand and take several weeks.  He's not ripping me off - making chairs is difficult and time consuming, and that's what it costs for the materials and his effort.  But if I just want "some chairs", I can go to ikea and get a full set for less than $500 and sit on them this evening.  Unless I place a lot of value in craftsmanship, the handmade chairs are "overpriced" to me.  I'd be an ass if I said handmade chairs are pointless, because they are clearly worth the cost to those who appreciate them.  But you have to admit that they're not worth the cost for everybody.

 

[rygD]

I want a bespoke Pyra with sharp angles on the metal case, a slightly modified keyboard, and a couple changes inside.  The closest I will probably get to that is whatever the higher end model of the Pyra will be.  I guess that might be a bit like getting a handmade chair, but not one made specifically for the buyer.

 

[klapse]

Unless I place a lot of value in craftsmanship, the handmade chairs are "overpriced" to me.  I'd be an ass if I said handmade chairs are pointless, because they are clearly worth the cost to those who appreciate them.  But you have to admit that they're not worth the cost for everybody.

This is spot on: You have explained why there is no objective value to a Pyra. Some people would buy a Pyra at 700 euro, more at 500 and so-on.

Your argument is an integral part of the subjective theory of value, created and fleshed-out during the Marginalist Revolution by people like Carl Menger, Friedrich von Wieser, Eugen von Boehm-Bawerk and W. Stanley Jevons. The best book on this is probably An Introduction to the Theory of Value by William Smart.

 

[FaeMinx]

Oh... a Smart book...

 

[_jr_]

Browsing a bit on mises.org brings me to the conclusion that the 'The Economist' quote on Wikipedia about Mises is accurate.

 

[klapse]

I don't think anyone can successfully refute the fact that the value of a Pyra is subjectively different to different potential buyers.

When ED finally sets a price, some people will find it costs less than they estimate it is worth to them (by varying degrees) and will buy it, thus profiting from the voluntary exchange of goods for money. Others will decide it costs more than the expected value they will get out of it and will refrain from buying it.

By producing the Pyra and offering it on the marketplace, our dear capitalist EvilDragon is providing a service to society because those who decide to buy it will become wealthier (they value the Pyra that they gain more highly than the money that they lose) and those who do not buy it will not become any poorer.

This kind of voluntary market transaction is described as Pareto Optimal.  It's a win-win situation for buyer and seller and it doesn't result in losses to uninvolved third parties.

(@ _jr_  Slinging mud at Ludwig von Mises doesn't have any relevance: he didn't come up with subjective theory of value.)

 

[_jr_]

Sorry, wasn't intended as mud slinging. But that Introduction to Theory of Value is useless, just like other content on mises.org that I've looked at. Those are just dialectic mind games. Perhaps some of those have relevance for the real world, I really don't know, but none of the sources you posted show any proof of that. E.g. your Pareto Optimal claim above needs a quantitative proof (based on a well defined notion of 'worth' and 'estimate') to exactly work out the circumstances under which the qualitative argument is true. AFAICT the result will most probably be that the assumptions that are required to show Pareto Optimal are not applicable in the real world (e.g. the customer's estimation skills might have to be better than can be demonstrated for humans, especially average ones).

 

[erico]

Hey Klapse, thank for pointing out that book, apart from its obvious vlue, it is going to be highly valuable to me while trying to create npcs on a kind of rogue game.

 

[FaeMinx]

Hey Klapse, thank for pointing out that book, apart from its obvious vlue, it is going to be highly valuable to me while trying to create npcs on a kind of rogue game.

Oh! Now I actually want to look at the book.

 

[klapse]

 none of the sources you posted show any proof of that. E.g. your Pareto Optimal claim above needs a quantitative proof (based on a well defined notion of 'worth' and 'estimate')

OK, you can't understand the logic that the value of a Pyra exists purely in the mind of a customer, and is determined at the time he/she decides to make a purchase and that it is completely subjective.

I expect others here can.

 

[Nintendo]

^ I totally understand and agree with it...but sometimes people value things a little too much for my liking. It's almost to the point of insanity. They're dreaming.

 

[Klumpen]

^ I totally understand and agree with it...but sometimes people value things a little too much for my liking. It's almost to the point of insanity. They're dreaming.

Like those people paying 200 bucks for a Madonna-ticket or a million bucks for a canvas with a dot on it?

As long as it isn't anything others need for living, I couldn't care less.

Although: If ED is contacted by some billionaire giving him $2 000 000 for being the only one to get a Pyra, what would you people around here do?

And what would ED do?