Minor Re-payment / Preordering Update


scottm

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maxSteiner said:
I'm assuming, since those were the best two quotes you could find, that my place in the line isn't secure then.
The only thing which is secure is my preorder status it seems, although the OP here seems to imply that not even that is secure, and that CC places will be resold to people willing to use Bank transfer...
As the credit card orders won't be happening for a few months - it's hardly fair that you stop anyone else from getting one as you won't order via bank transfer. There are 100's of people wanting to buy some of the extra ones from the 1st batch, and also loads wanting to order from the 2nd batch who are willing to do bank transfers. Are you saying that they should all have to wait until the credit card orders are in place and you can place an order because you aren't willing to do a bank transfer?!! :blink:

Not only this but OP would lose £1000's as they wouldn't be able to sell to all the other buyers.

Your place in the queue is still safe as long as you are willing to do a bank transfer. If you are not willing to do a bank transfer, then you lose your place - this seems perfectly reasonable to me.
 
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MaxSteiner

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It would be perfectly reasonable to me as well, except we were told numerous times that my place in the queue would be sucure until CC ordering was in place, up until this week!

Hell, its gotten to the stage that Im not sure I'd ever see one anyway, so another 6 months hardly makes a difference :D

All I'm asking, is why bother to make a firm commitment, hell why bother with a preordering process at all, if the end result is a bank transfer free for all?!?!?!
 

stustaff

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maxSteiner said:
It would be perfectly reasonable to me as well, except we were told numerous times that my place in the queue would be sucure until CC ordering was in place, up until this week!

Hell, its gotten to the stage that Im not sure I'd ever see one anyway, so another 6 months hardly makes a difference :D

All I'm asking, is why bother to make a firm commitment, hell why bother with a preordering process at all, if the end result is a bank transfer free for all?!?!?!
Whilst making a commitment should and does mean something! things can happen(forget whose fault none of it was intentional) that have an impact on the ability to live up to that commitment.

At this stage OP have said sorry but they can not live up to that commitment for those who can ONLY pay by CC.

Thats it end of.
 
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WizardStan

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lobski said:
I have no options available to me besides a credit card transaction. Do I really need to wait 4-5 months? No other choice what so ever?
This appears to be very promising. I didn't do a lot of digging, but on the surface it appears to be a way to send money somewhere and pay the balance with a credit card. If your only option really, really, REALLY is credit card (not because you want the security, but because you simply cannot do a bank transfer) then perhaps this is a viable option for you. If someone else wants to investigate this as an option, I'm sure many people would appreciate it.
 
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MaxSteiner

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But why dangle the six months down the line possible CC orders in frount of us?

If CC places are being sold to Bank transfers, what happens, do we exchange places in the queue with them?

Do I completly lose my place?

Will they even bother to produce Pandoras for people who want to play via CC?

Is the entire preorder list torn up except for those who pay via bank transfer and cheque payment?

We're asked to contact them if we no longer want a Pandora, does that mean we are assumed to still have a preorder place up when CC ordering is up, unless we have contacted them?

If the reshuffling of customers results in a significant loss of money, will there still be a secound wave of Pandora's?

See alot of questions can arrise from a simple brick wall statement.

If we're told to just give up if we wont bank Transfer, Pandora loses alot of customers,l so it would make sense for them too keep waving the prospect of CC reordering wouldn't it?
 

theehman

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My offer is still open to do bank transfers for US residents. By pooling our orders into one transfer we can save on the transfer fees. I have an empty account I use just for transfers and would only need the payment plus a $10 fee for your share of the transfer fees and my trouble. PM me for more details. My username is theehman on ebay and I have over 800 transactions and 100% positive feedback. Additionally, I own RonSound so I'm easy to find.
 

Eniko

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maxSteiner said:
But why dangle the six months down the line possible CC orders in frount of us?

If CC places are being sold to Bank transfers, what happens, do we exchange places in the queue with them?

Do I completly lose my place?

Will they even bother to produce Pandoras for people who want to play via CC?

Is the entire preorder list torn up except for those who pay via bank transfer and cheque payment?

We're asked to contact them if we no longer want a Pandora, does that mean we are assumed to still have a preorder place up when CC ordering is up, unless we have contacted them?

If the reshuffling of customers results in a significant loss of money, will there still be a secound wave of Pandora's?

See alot of questions can arrise from a simple brick wall statement.

If we're told to just give up if we wont bank Transfer, Pandora loses alot of customers,l so it would make sense for them too keep waving the prospect of CC reordering wouldn't it?
This has been explained. If you cannot/do not want to pay by bank transfer, mail cheque or money order your order for the first batch is effectively cancelled, and can then later on be snatched up by someone who missed getting in on the first batch and is willing to pay by one of the above transfers.

However it will be on record that you attempted to preorder from the first batch and when OP is able to accept credit card payments again, if you still want a Pandora, you will be put on the fast track to be one of the first people to receive one. What you'll have to pay is the price you originally paid when preordering. Basically your preorder will be grandfathered in as soon as they can accept credit cards.

Sources: (most relevant sections underlined for convenience)
craigix said:
Now, those of you who don't want to reorder right now please let us know so we can open up some slots for people on the waiting list, I know that seems harsh but we have to move on this now as we approach MP.

Your original order price will still stand if you decide to order in the future (ie maybe in 4-6 months when we hope to have merchant numbers). You will get the fast track treatment at that point.
Chip said:
Those who have been refunded and cannot reorder now will still be able to purchase a Pandora later at the exact amount they were originally refunded. I do not know when we will be able to accept credit card orders, but we'll let you know as soon as it's possible.
And I think if you have questions beyond what is explained in these posts the best thing for you to do isn't to post on the forums and ask a reply, but to email openpandorasales@gmail.com and ask for further information from what is essentially OP's customer service. By all accounts they are quick to respond, so you should know all you want relatively quickly.

And on a personal recommendation note: if it's not the insurance CC offers that you want, but you don't want to mess with the fees of bank transfers or the hassle of setting up a transfer with tranzfers.com then personally I suggest a money order. From my experiences with them they're a robust, safe and cheap way to pay internationally. They're just a little slow. Ask your bank for more information.

Phew that was a lot of info to type up, hope it at least helps someone.
 
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Chip

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maxSteiner said:
But why dangle the six months down the line possible CC orders in frount of us?

If CC places are being sold to Bank transfers, what happens, do we exchange places in the queue with them?

Do I completly lose my place?
If you still cannot use the forms of payment that we can accept, then yes, you will "loose your place in line". Since it doesn't look like we'll be able to take credit cards before the first batch has completely shipped, your "place" means nothing if you can only pay by credit card.

We would love to be able to take credit card orders. We've been trying like hell to make it happen for four months. Unfortunately, every bank in England is too afraid, ignorant and stubborn to allow us to do business. Because of that, we're stuck with only being able to take alternate methods of payment.

QUOTE
But I am at a complete loss as to what the point of the entire preorder process was (especially since many of the delays could have been avoided by reading the terms and conditions of the system being used!)
This is simply not true. When GBAX took preorders for the GP2X a few years ago, it wasn't a problem. When they took preorders for the Wiz just a couple weeks before the Pandora, it wasn't a problem. How could any reasonable person expect it to suddenly be a problem now? If by some miracle we could have known it would be a problem, you'd be in the exact same position - not being able to pay via credit card.
 
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chiark

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Chip said:
How could any reasonable person expect it to suddenly be a problem now?
New company? Check.
Non-existent product? Check.
Sudden influx of millions of pounds of credit-card sourced money? Check.
Exposure to 100% chargeback? Check.
Not enough security/stock/capital to mitigate the risk? Check.
Possibility of nothing being delivered, OpenPandora going bust and banks left carrying the can for chargeback? Check.

My bet is that OpenPandora would have hit the same problems whether or not the credit crunch had happened...

I'm probably wrong, so ignore me, but this has crossed many more minds than mine. I consider myself reasonable :D
 
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Chip

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chiark said:
I'm probably wrong, so ignore me, but this has crossed many more minds than mine. I consider myself reasonable :D
Oh sure, in retrospect it all seems so obvious. Before this happened though, no one thought to bring up the possibility. As many trolls as we had (and have) desperate to find fault with the project, nobody saw this "obvious" problem and said "Ha! There's no way any bank would actually take your credit card orders!".

In fact, when we first made the announcement about the forced refunds, several people said that "No bank would turn away business! There is no way they're forcing refunds! OP must be lying!".

The thought of a bank refusing to take a couple million dollars worth of legitimate CC orders was laughable six months ago. Now all of a sudden it's common sense?
 
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Asmo

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Chip said:
Oh sure, in retrospect it all seems so obvious. Before this happened though, no one thought to bring up the possibility. As many trolls as we had (and have) desperate to find fault with the project, nobody saw this "obvious" problem and said "Ha! There's no way any bank would actually take your credit card orders!".



If we'd been told that the Bank hadn't been made aware of the business plan I bet somebody would have piped up, and promptly been run out of town.
 
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mali

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I call it beating a dead horse.
Let's just move on, except you've got a time machine ;)
 

Prometheus

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I have no wish to cause or contribute to an argument or whatever, but this has been on my mind for a few days: Am I really the only one who remembers Craig mentioning, at least a few times before the pre-orders opened, that meetings with the bank had to be dealt with prior to pre-orders opening? Moreover, am I the only one who recalls this being mentioned the day before (or possibly the morning of) the beginning of the pre-ordering process? :|
 

Asmo

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Monk said:
maxSteiner said:
other than getting our money early (which we were repeatedly told wasn't needed to pay for production!)...
Ah, Well, therein lies the rub. Again. Actually, we were told at least once by ED that the actual manufacturing would be paid with preorder money - but that one post, long ago (sorry I can't find the link) got overwhelmed with various "we don't need preorder money for the components" type comments that eventually people were assuming, and saying, that the OpenPandora team could afford to make the entire batch without preorder money. Chip even came to believe that, somewhere along the line, the rumour was SO pervasive. I think the team could have done more to be upfront about that and correct the misinformation much, MUCH earlier.


Well, there was a thread where Craig effectively said it too:

"Do All 3,000 Units Have To Be Sold Before Production Can Start?"
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry653740

craigix said:
No, it's all starting this week.

Prometheus said:
Am I really the only one who remembers Craig mentioning, at least a few times before the pre-orders opened, that meetings with the bank had to be dealt with prior to pre-orders opening? Moreover, am I the only one who recalls this being mentioned the day before (or possibly the morning of) the beginning of the pre-ordering process? :|
This one?

craigix said:
*About* 2pm, could easily be 2:30pm if things go slow. We still need a final go ahead from the bank tomorrow, ohhh I wonder when they will give us it, the suspense goes on...

Phoning for it at 8am though :)
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showtopic=44527
 
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Monk

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Prometheus said:
I have no wish to cause or contribute to an argument or whatever, but this has been on my mind for a few days: Am I really the only one who remembers Craig mentioning, at least a few times before the pre-orders opened, that meetings with the bank had to be dealt with prior to pre-orders opening? Moreover, am I the only one who recalls this being mentioned the day before (or possibly the morning of) the beginning of the pre-ordering process? :|
Are you suggesting that Craig knew such meetings needed to take place, but that they promptly didn't?
 
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Bronek

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Chip said:
We would love to be able to take credit card orders. We've been trying like hell to make it happen for four months. Unfortunately, every bank in England is too afraid, ignorant and stubborn to allow us to do business.
I am not surprised. Money are produced out of debt and the banks carry risk of this operation (they lose real money if debt turns bad). Credit card transactions are the second biggest source of individual debt, just after mortgages. For those who have not noticed, banks are these days crushed with bad debts, which should explain why they are reluctant to take on new ones.



Chip said:
The thought of a bank refusing to take a couple million dollars worth of legitimate CC orders was laughable six months ago. Now all of a sudden it's common sense?
Calling it "common sense" is slight exaggeration, but I think only very recently people started paying attention to word "debt" and what it actually means to the banks and economy.
 
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Prometheus

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Monk said:
Prometheus said:
I have no wish to cause or contribute to an argument or whatever, but this has been on my mind for a few days: Am I really the only one who remembers Craig mentioning, at least a few times before the pre-orders opened, that meetings with the bank had to be dealt with prior to pre-orders opening? Moreover, am I the only one who recalls this being mentioned the day before (or possibly the morning of) the beginning of the pre-ordering process? :|
Are you suggesting that Craig knew such meetings needed to take place, but that they promptly didn't?

No, I am not. If I was suggesting anything, I would have said so. ;)

As previously stated, I have no wish to cause or contribute to an argument, however I think I should respond because I certainly don't want my post being taken the wrong way and causing trouble anyway - my reason for asking was to 1: check my memory and 2: to see the post that I thought I recalled, which Asmo kindly assisted with on both points. :)

(My perception was and is that the needed meetings took place, since the quote Asmo provided states that they were waiting for the bank to give them the go-ahead to open the pre-orders. :p I just wished to be sure that I had perceived things as I thought I had, from an official statement.)

EDIT: Or, to put it another way, now I think of it; It appeared that nobody else did remember the statement Craig made, and I was beginning to wonder if I had perhaps misremembered what was said or some other such thing. :lol:
 
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cosurgi

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Since it's all clear now, maybe you could tell us how many people didn't reorder due to this CC problem?

Yeah, such information will change nothing for me, but you know - it's called curiosity.
 
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