An appointment and boards shipping (2011-07-22)


I'm a latecomer to the whole Pandora scene. I think those that preordered have shown remarkable patience and understanding, as have people who have now been waiting two months for their premium orders when the order page still says it will ship in seven business days. Calling them idiots for getting frustrated and emailing the company directly makes you sound like a fourteen year old fanboy.
or maybe im just jaded, we've all been there, no matter how much youve paid for it, if you tell me that youve waited an actual two months instead of Two Months, i will congratulate you, shake your hand, turn around, and start laughing my ass off. OpenPandora Ltd is far from an established company imho, and if reading and checking into forums for support isnt your thing, then this might not be the right device for you


also, EvilDragon, would it be possible to start posting tracking numbers like the old days when possible?
 
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Sweet, you got a tracking number. How many boards are in the shipment? (If you actually know the number)
 
Good luck suing me under Dutch law for letting people know what was written elsewhere by others on the internet. Can't wait for the first letter to arrive.
Actually, they'd more than likely sue ED as the originator of the "libel".
 
Timstertoo said:
you think suing them is the more professional way of going about it by all chipping in you better call Saul! I think that would be more costly and less effective. But very American, I'll admit to that.


Sent from my MotoA953 using Tapatalk

I'm not sure how you will get compensation for any loss you had by bad-mouthing the company.


Aditionally, if you bad-mouth them (or initiate such mass-badmouthing), they could sue you and get money because you intentionally lowered their reputation.


The only proper way is to:


* Tell what YOUR experiences were (objective)


* Try to get compensation for your losses from them. They most likely won't agree, so your only option is a lawyer.


Telling the whole world how crappy a company is would result in


* the company most likely to stop working on your stuff


* the company sueing you for bad-mouthing


Either one or both of that. I can't see how that is the better option...
 
Sweet, you got a tracking number. How many boards are in the shipment? (If you actually know the number)

Don't really know, but more than 40... they should all work though, as they are now using our own comprehensive testing setup.


So it would be the same as about 100 before ;)

Good luck suing me under Dutch law for letting people know what was written elsewhere by others on the internet. Can't wait for the first letter to arrive.
Actually, they'd more than likely sue ED as the originator of the "libel".

Exactly. Instead of having a good chance of getting money compensation back from them, we'd have to pay THEM.
 
Timstertoo said:
you think suing them is the more professional way of going about it by all chipping in you better call Saul! I think that would be more costly and less effective. But very American, I'll admit to that.


Sent from my MotoA953 using Tapatalk

I'm not sure how you will get compensation for any loss you had by bad-mouthing the company.


Aditionally, if you bad-mouth them (or initiate such mass-badmouthing), they could sue you and get money because you intentionally lowered their reputation.


The only proper way is to:


* Tell what YOUR experiences were (objective)


* Try to get compensation for your losses from them. They most likely won't agree, so your only option is a lawyer.


Telling the whole world how crappy a company is would result in


* the company most likely to stop working on your stuff


* the company sueing you for bad-mouthing


Either one or both of that. I can't see how that is the better option...

I don't see you getting any compensation out of them regardless.


I do think that letting another small company walking into the same trap with them because everyone seems so intent to let them get away with it is wrong.


If ED is libel for anything he is that already as it's already on an open internet forum so that is a moot point.


Anyhow, I was promised my Pandora within 2 months by GBAX when I originally ordered and I'm pushing two years. Probably some premium user is running around with my unit. I'm in a pissy mood again as I'm going on holiday tomorrow without it and will (if it ever happens) probably receive it when I don't have 3 weeks of free time. I might as well use that free time to safeguard someone else from a similar experience.


Seems that everyone can change the rules and agreements however and whenever they want so I might as well flex some of my it's a free world muscles too.
 
only 40? I wonder how many rma/premiums are waiting to be filled. I'm probably screwed. <_< This is crazy, I feel like I should have a rma/premium que number. It's October 2008 all over again! When I think about how much waiting I've done, I amaze myself at my own patience.


Pandorians are an elite group of ultra patient, sympathetic geeks who have been initiated through a gauntlet of delays, waiting, rma's, and more waiting; ultimately to be baptized to geeky gaming utopia when perseverance has won the day. Hold fast, my friends, it is worth it! B)


Man, I miss my Pandora :(
 
I don't see you getting any compensation out of them regardless.

And why is that?


I've been through all mails, we've got enough proof that they didn't produce as they told us they will (until October 18th without nubs).


If they HAD done as we discussed with them, all Batch 1 PCBs would've been finished January / February and there wouldn't have been any oxidation issues as well.


We kept all eMails as proof, so the only reason we wouldn't be able to get our loss from them would be their bancruptcy upfront.
 
On a slightly different note, this thread started by mentioning working with the GTA04 guys. Youtube has a cool

https://www.youtube.com/embed/ngyhKr3yTO8?feature=oembed of the Freerunner navigation board initial production (The Neo Freerunner is the predecessor to the GTA04). Since this "might" also be the future Pandora board production line I thought it would be nice to post it here.
 
I don't see you getting any compensation out of them regardless.

And why is that?


I've been through all mails, we've got enough proof that they didn't produce as they told us they will (until October 18th without nubs).


If they HAD done as we discussed with them, all Batch 1 PCBs would've been finished January / February and there wouldn't have been any oxidation issues as well.


We kept all eMails as proof, so the only reason we wouldn't be able to get our loss from them would be their bancruptcy upfront.

This is of course a discussion that's impossible to have as I have no clue what the exact details of all your agreements were so I'm just making some educated guesses here.


1. you don't have the money to sue unless we get extra-premium Pandoras that get shipped in 3 days and skip the queue of the queue skipping premiums.


2. I think they are probably just as impressed by a European small company suing them in the US as I am about them suing me for libel under Dutch law.


3. Every story has two sides and I'd be surprised if you guys were squeeky clean towards them regarding getting things there on time, payments on time, downpayments made etc etc which is perfectly normal for a company going through rough times as you have been. So they might have enough return ammo to really not be worried by whatever you try to make stick on them. I'm not blaming you guys here for anything just saying that you've also been forced to do some manoeuvring to keep things together and that might not be helpfull in a lawsuit.


4. The time and energy it would take to ever see a penny, even if you can afford it, is probably not worth the compensation you might get considering you guys are doing some seriously other cool stuff like the ICP and keeping that momentum going might be much more valuable in the long run.


Let's agree to disagree and everyone does what he thinks is best, I really don't want to keep you from the important stuff.
 
1. you don't have the money to sue unless we get extra-premium Pandoras that get shipped in 3 days and skip the queue of the queue skipping premiums.

Sueing is not THAT expensive, you know.

2. I think they are probably just as impressed by a European small company suing them in the US as I am about them suing me for libel under Dutch law.

The contract was made in US, so it would all take place under US law.


That's why you'd choose a US law firm as well.


And guess what: While America is a somewhat crazy country, they have some laws there as well.


Besides, CC is no big company. It would be different to try to sue Sony or Nintendo for something.

3. Every story has two sides and I'd be surprised if you guys were squeeky clean towards them regarding getting things there on time, payments on time, downpayments made etc etc which is perfectly normal for a company going through rough times as you have been. So they might have enough return ammo to really not be worried by whatever you try to make stick on them. I'm not blaming you guys here for anything just saying that you've also been forced to do some manoeuvring to keep things together and that might not be helpfull in a lawsuit.

Well, we had the contract to pay 30 days after delivery. And we always kept that deadline, because we thought it would be a good idea as long as we still wanted to get more boards from them ;)


Believe me, I went through ALL the eMails... and it was really making me sad that we sometimes asked 3 times a week for a status update without getting a reply at all.


Of course there are some things they could claim towards us, however, there is one simple fact:


We MADE the deal with them that they will produce ALL boards without nubs until October (and later until the end of the year).


This didn't happen (not even close, they did about 500 boards instead of 3200), and this caused all the issues we are having now.


Batch 1 COULD'VE been easily finished by February, the next 4000 could've been finished by June / July.


Just calculate the potential sales we could've done now, imagine how much money that would be... there's not much they could claim towards us here.

4. The time and energy it would take to ever see a penny, even if you can afford it, is probably not worth the compensation you might get considering you guys are doing some seriously other cool stuff like the ICP and keeping that momentum going might be much more valuable in the long run.

Not much time and energy needed if you contract a law company.


And heck, we're talking about 1000 PCBs they need to fix right now... if they simply tell us "Sorry, we couldn't get more than 100 to work", that would be 300.000 USD loss just for parts.


There's no way we're going to accept that.


I checked with some german companies here. The failure rate for such a production would normally be 3 - 5%. 10% if something goes wrong. But we're talking of about 25% here right now!


And you're opinion is we should just let them get away and tell "Well, they didn't do a good job, but who cares"?

Let's agree to disagree and everyone does what he thinks is best, I really don't want to keep you from the important stuff.

Well, the important stuff is keeping everything going.


This either works with delivering the PCBs OR having the money to refund everyone (or have those lost PCBs manufactured elsewhere).


Since I don't think anyone is just going to give us half a million to do the production elsewhere, I guess we need to either see if they CAN finish the remaining 1000 PCBs within an acceptable timeframe or try to get the loss back.
 
1. you don't have the money to sue unless we get extra-premium Pandoras that get shipped in 3 days and skip the queue of the queue skipping premiums.

Sueing is not THAT expensive, you know.

2. I think they are probably just as impressed by a European small company suing them in the US as I am about them suing me for libel under Dutch law.

The contract was made in US, so it would all take place under US law.


That's why you'd choose a US law firm as well.


And guess what: While America is a somewhat crazy country, they have some laws there as well.


Besides, CC is no big company. It would be different to try to sue Sony or Nintendo for something.

3. Every story has two sides and I'd be surprised if you guys were squeeky clean towards them regarding getting things there on time, payments on time, downpayments made etc etc which is perfectly normal for a company going through rough times as you have been. So they might have enough return ammo to really not be worried by whatever you try to make stick on them. I'm not blaming you guys here for anything just saying that you've also been forced to do some manoeuvring to keep things together and that might not be helpfull in a lawsuit.

Well, we had the contract to pay 30 days after delivery. And we always kept that deadline, because we thought it would be a good idea as long as we still wanted to get more boards from them ;)


Believe me, I went through ALL the eMails... and it was really making me sad that we sometimes asked 3 times a week for a status update without getting a reply at all.


Of course there are some things they could claim towards us, however, there is one simple fact:


We MADE the deal with them that they will produce ALL boards without nubs until October (and later until the end of the year).


This didn't happen (not even close, they did about 500 boards instead of 3200), and this caused all the issues we are having now.


Batch 1 COULD'VE been easily finished by February, the next 4000 could've been finished by June / July.


Just calculate the potential sales we could've done now, imagine how much money that would be... there's not much they could claim towards us here.

4. The time and energy it would take to ever see a penny, even if you can afford it, is probably not worth the compensation you might get considering you guys are doing some seriously other cool stuff like the ICP and keeping that momentum going might be much more valuable in the long run.

Not much time and energy needed if you contract a law company.


And heck, we're talking about 1000 PCBs they need to fix right now... if they simply tell us "Sorry, we couldn't get more than 100 to work", that would be 300.000 USD loss just for parts.


There's no way we're going to accept that.


I checked with some german companies here. The failure rate for such a production would normally be 3 - 5%. 10% if something goes wrong. But we're talking of about 25% here right now!


And you're opinion is we should just let them get away and tell "Well, they didn't do a good job, but who cares"?

Let's agree to disagree and everyone does what he thinks is best, I really don't want to keep you from the important stuff.

Well, the important stuff is keeping everything going.


This either works with delivering the PCBs OR having the money to refund everyone (or have those lost PCBs manufactured elsewhere).


Since I don't think anyone is just going to give us half a million to do the production elsewhere, I guess we need to either see if they CAN finish the remaining 1000 PCBs within an acceptable timeframe or try to get the loss back.

I sincerely hope that you are right and all my points are ridiculous. Best result for me would be that you get your compensation in no time, can move production and we have a happy community doing all sorts of positive productive stuff on our Pandoras. :)
 
Is it possible CC might be going under? If other clients are getting the same lack of communication and missed deadlines they might be sinking into bankruptcy.
 
Is it possible CC might be going under? If other clients are getting the same lack of communication and missed deadlines they might be sinking into bankruptcy.

I don't think that's a big fear, I think they mostly do more simple boards.
 
So were they received? How many showed up? Do they work? When are they suppose to send the rest?
 
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