All the nubs are there! (2011 - 01 - 11)

[Argtrak]

The population machine seems to have missed off several parts. It's unfixable here.

That's rather odd. Aren't they supposed to do basic tests of each board? If so, it's kind of strange that that board even made it to you. :huh:

 

[craigix]

That's rather odd. Aren't they supposed to do basic tests of each board? If so, it's kind of strange that that board even made it to you. :huh:

It does boot but is missing parts which should be there, the battery connector, the power switch etc. maybe it was supposed to go in the rejected pile and ended up in the shipping pile. It happens.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

It does boot but is missing parts which should be there, the battery connector, the power switch etc. maybe it was supposed to go in the rejected pile and ended up in the shipping pile. It happens.

more refurbs for ebay.? They sold so fast.

 

[XxionxX]

THE ANTICIPATION IS KILLING ME!! The more Pandas released out into the wild the more I hope for my email! I want to see it on my doorstep! * tweak * :blink:

 

[WizardStan]

That's rather odd. Aren't they supposed to do basic tests of each board?

Other factories I've worked didn't test every single part, just enough to verify compliance. You push through 500 parts, testing every 5th one. The failure rate of those is going to approximate the failure going to the client. Less than 5% failure is good; less than 2% failure is brilliant!*


Of course, I worked in rubber moulding, fiberglass insulation, and steel shelving factories, so the procedures at an electronics population plant may be different.


*numbers randomly selected for demonstration, and varied by job. The rubber factory needed to have 0% failure in our spot checks, for example: find even one, and the entire batch was checked by hand. The fiberglass insulation job we didn't care how many failures there were, we just had to note them (also checked far fewer).

 

[benji_stein]

Hey Benji,


Is it me or did you not preorder? It just seems to me that you have no concept as to how a supply system actually works. Its called money. That is all I have for you. It perplexes me as to how you have such a hard on for CC and some type of explanation or apology. The fact of the matter is that they are doing what they've been and are being paid to do. Doing nothing with someones resources and telling them that you are doing something with their resources by allowing them to take up space in your warehouse is progress. I think you ask too many questions, but more importantly you ask the wrong ones repeatedly. I think ED is better off working on other things than holding your hand through this.

It's just you. I definitely have a preorder (and no, I'm not telling you my number).


I understand how supply-and-demand works, and agree that money is everything. I understand that companies think they can jerk OPT around, because they don't have a lot of money, and can't defend themselves. But that's the purpose of contracts - both parties agree on something, sign, shake hands, whatever, and then both sides have to abide by it, or suffer the penalties (hopefully) laid out in said contract.


The thing is, we had a contract, and they didn't follow through. They told us they were, and then scrambled when we called their bluff. All we have is theories about why they did this, and so I still want to know what *their* explanation was. ED did say he would keep us updated.


I'm sorry if you don't like my questions - but I try to ask the hard ones that no one else is asking. Maybe I just didn't read the enough of the ranty CC thread. I'm not a yes-man, so I question decisions like "well, they were bad before, but seem to be OK now, so I guess we can try trusting them again." If it was easy, or a simple answer, then it would have been thought of and done already. ED told us that the TV cables would be ordered after the next 500 boards from CC shipped. He changed his mind; that's fine, now we know. But hiding things under the rug can lead to issues later on, which is why I push it.


I don't need my hand held, and I don't need an answer to everything. But there are still a number of things that are pending, and I don't want to see still more delays because of oversights. I'd really prefer not to see this project fail.

Me thinks you have very limited experience of PCB/product manufacture. Splitting the production would be the best way to ensure both options fail. Keep the options open, make today's decisions based on best information available now, not what seemed like a good idea last year.

Not on a large-scale level, no. But based on my current information - which is a lack of explanation from CC - I still don't trust them as far as I could throw a broken nub. But the problem is that you can't just switch immediately. It takes time to set up a contract/production at another place - ED told us several times that it was on the order of months. So that means you either (1) never switch or (2) prepare for a transition when thinks are looking brownish. So you prepare, and after all that, it seems worth peeking to see how far the light at the end of the tunnel is. Because once you start at two places, one will have to stop. It could easily be the new one, if it's not any better. But it can *never* be CC, if you're not willing to try.

Of course it is! Like you, I don't like it, but it's common practice and they do that all the time. You seem to believe your business partner is your friend. Well, sorry to break your bubble, it's not. It just cares for profit, and will do whatever it thinks is appropriate to optimise its business at any given time. Obviously at that time, CC didn't really trust OP to actually make it, and who could blame them? There are many stories of failures on that kind of business.


Now that OP proved to them they could be valuable as partners, a relation of trust and mutual profit has been created, and they will do whatever they can to keep OP as a customer. That is called capitalism, you might like it or not, but it's the economic world we're living in.

Yes, my business partner is trying to make a buck. But some of them are still my friends. And Capitalism definitely not about saying one thing and do another. It's about doing (and agreeing to do) the thing that will be most profitable long-term (well, maybe medium-term). It might be most profitable now to promise to do lots of jobs that you'll never do - but that's corporate suicide, because the word will get out, and then you'll stop getting business. And that's close to what CC did. If they'd been upfront and told OPT they were going to waited for the nubs, no one would have held them at fault, and everything would have been fine and dandy (well, minus the nub issues, of course). But that's not what they did. For three (four?) months, they told us they were working hard on the boards, and kept being "almost done", then guess what? I've not had any experiences like that and if anyone I deal with tried to pull that on me, I'd never work with them again, because they completely undermined any future trust I could have. Of course, maybe they had a really (*really*) good reason. Which is what I'm asking. But no one from OPT will give an official response.

 

[Sugar_Kane]

I think you are EDs true father and you only wish to see him succeed from afar, it's the only possible answer

 

[DaMummy]

the reason opt cant just up and switch case production company, is because thats the cheapest possible solution they could find, and dont have the money right now to go elsewhere, im sure they would love to go elsewhere and be treated better, so if you gonna constantly complain about the choices OPT makes, donate some money.....a quite large amount...if you want them to work with better companies

 

[WizardStan]

Case production is done. I thought the current round of complaints is about finding a new board population factory, of which CC is definitely not the cheapest as far as I'm aware. Startup cost isn't actually that high, and OPT wouldn't be the first company to start production at multiple factories. Unfortunately it probably wouldn't actually happen because, while CC may have been willing to take on 4000 units with an optimistic estimate beyond 10'000, I seriously doubt they or any other population facility would have accepted only 2000 units in competition with another factory for the unites beyond that initial setup. If they had 50'000 to split between 2 or 3 factories, probably be no problem: split 4000-8000, the factory is going to question if it's really worth it.

 

[Arkay Firestar]

Benji, you really should tone the vitriol down. Truth is, you're taking everything OPT says to be 100% truth, when in fact there are two sides to everything.


And in all fairness, my understanding is that they're an established company with a good history, which means a number of satisfied or partially satisfied customers. OPT hasn't shipped all that many of their product. I'm willing to give both sides the benefit of the doubt, but the reality is that they're the reliable company with the history (again, as I understand it) of delivering; OPT is not.


If anyone had been fleeced throughout this thing I'm sure action would have been taken. That no action HAS been taken leads me to believe that there's probably more fault/blame to fall on OPT's shoulders than has been let on. Let's face it: most of the delays relating to this project are not connected to CC's ability to deliver finished boards.


You should calm down and cool it with the errant hostility. There's nothing to be gained from so much negativity. I'm sure both sides are doing their best, although this project and my order are much more curiosities to me now than anything I'm actually expecting to receive in the next 6 months.


The hilarious part is that my company will be moving addresses in a couple months, and I had mine addressed to my office so I could be sure I was there to receive it. God knows what'll happen if I can't properly update the target address (I'm reluctant to even bring it up via email)...

 

[Link]

^


The address change is the best way to find out where you are in the que.


@ Benji,


A reply will follow from a real keyboard.

 

[Valpskott]

Or Medusa


cause then we wouldn't be able to look directly at it

The name "Cratos" would certanly piss off the whole array of Greek Gods.

 

[foxblock]

Benji, you really should tone the vitriol down. Truth is, you're taking everything OPT says to be 100% truth, when in fact there are two sides to everything.


And in all fairness, my understanding is that they're an established company with a good history, which means a number of satisfied or partially satisfied customers. OPT hasn't shipped all that many of their product. I'm willing to give both sides the benefit of the doubt, but the reality is that they're the reliable company with the history (again, as I understand it) of delivering; OPT is not.


If anyone had been fleeced throughout this thing I'm sure action would have been taken. That no action HAS been taken leads me to believe that there's probably more fault/blame to fall on OPT's shoulders than has been let on. Let's face it: most of the delays relating to this project are not connected to CC's ability to deliver finished boards.


You should calm down and cool it with the errant hostility. There's nothing to be gained from so much negativity. I'm sure both sides are doing their best, although this project and my order are much more curiosities to me now than anything I'm actually expecting to receive in the next 6 months.

"Errant hostility"?? I don't see any hostility in his posts - he just asks some unpleasant questions nobody else is asking and I can totally understand him.


The current situation seems like a total turnaround as before it seemed like switching the board company was a definite. Sure there are reasons for that, but it should be explained - especially as we have seen thinks like this before (painted cases, silk screening, etc.).


I don't have any negative feelings towards OP and I doubt benji_stein has, he stated he wants the project to succeed (well, who does not), but there have been a lot of hickups before, so some people start asking those questions concerning possible problems and I can totally understand and respect that!


I can't understand why there is so much hostility towards benji on the other hand...


I also do understand that the whole team is under a lot of pressure, but they are probably the only people able to properly answer these questions, so why don't we give them some time to answer them and stop bashing prople!


foxblock out

 

[craigix]

We did switch board companies - we took all the iCP parts and shipped them to another company.


Then we asked someone we know to put pressure on CC.


We also phoned them day after day to the point of annoyance.


We also sent someone to visit them over and over again.


Between all these things something seems to have clicked and suddenly we are getting PCBs faster than we can assemble them.


Whatever works...

 

[Caine]

Between all these things something seems to have clicked and suddenly we are getting PCBs faster than we can assemble them.

Good to hear. I don't suppose you would clarify this a bit with a estimated timeline of incoming boards and outgoing pandoras?


Any ETA for the next batch of boards? Apparently CC had around 400 new ones ready, should be more by now.


The last news I heard was that EvilDragon shipped about 40 units and has received another 40 units but is too busy to ship them out yet. According to the fact that 550 units were produced there should still be like around 50-60 units to ship to Germany.

 

[Dude]

I must say this whole process sounds interesting from multiple points,


It's nice to know problems, and solutions!


This kind of information could become invaluable, for others interested


in similar projects of their own!


Thanks!

 

[craigix]

They are shipping another 500 on Monday it seems, or at least next week.

 

[Jumpman]

They are shipping another 500 on Monday it seems, or at least next week.

AWESOME! The full 4000 will be done shortly if this keeps up.


Have the remaining cases shipped from China yet? If not when are they due to leave? And if they have, what is their ETA? Thanks!


Chris

 

[Caine]

They are shipping another 500 on Monday it seems, or at least next week.

Cool. That's what, about 500 units every two weeks or so?


Sounds like beginning/halfway February for me in case I'm just out of range in the current batch of ED.


Hmmm. That's actually longer than I was hoping for


Well, so be it.

 

[Link]

@Benji,


The contract was to make 4000 boards in the first batch. ED told us a good bit of this time that he didn't trust what CC was saying and doing and was basically giving us the worst case scenario. I truthfully think that CC does not owe this community or OPT an explanation for doing what they did. They did produce 900 boards and didn't get paid. Now they are making and completing batch 1. They have had to pay the people assembling these boards and the electric bills for the machines in the months since they started producing boards. I have no idea what the components for the boards may take up spacewise, but they stored things as a courtesy and a liability (fire, natural disaster, things we know can happen). Where was that in the contract? That OPT should be paying CC rent for storage for a 2 Month™ project that is now taking 9.


Who was jerking who around? You keep looking at all of this from only the Pandora consumer perspective. Saying things like that's easy regarding opening a second production facility? Also, initially CC was going to assemble the Pandoras, but then OPT changed the contract because of saving costs and the fact that the cost of doing business in the world has gone through significant increases for goods and materials since October 2008. This is something to keep in mind, because by changing the contract, OPT was taking money out of CCs pocket by doing the assembly themselves. I have no idea as to what was agreed upon initially, but hypothetically speaking, OPT could have already breeched one or two contracts, first by changing assembly and second by stopping production for nubs.


The Pandora is the little guy, and considering that the project has limited capital to pressure the company with litigation as was suggested by you previously for breeching contract. If they're not making boards right now, then that would be breeching that contract if they refused. They've never refused, just told us they were done a few thousand boards which we couldn't supply them with the nubs to fit them with anyway. Maybe somewhere along the lines of communication there was a miscommunication about 2000 Panda Boards being done, or 2000 Beagle Boards being done. Maybe it was an outright lie thinking nobody was hopping a flight to Texas to check them out. If these boards were finished, they would have been sitting in storage until last week thanks to nubs. I don't think a contract was breeched, a lie might have been told.


I am not a yes man either. I think it is CCs turn to give the Pandora some priority now that this job can be finished and they can get paid. Rather than them telling us why they lied or if they lied, I'd rather just have another 4000 boards nubbed and ready to roll 5 minutes sooner than it would take for them to give us that explanation. To me it was common sense what they did. If someone owes you money for goods they received on consignment, the best way to get the money out of them is to let them think you have more goods. If that requires a lie or some mistruths, then its all part of the game. You then get paid for goods consigned and can say, oh, it will be Two Months™ until we have more. To continue on that note, if you know you can't trust someone's word, then you know you can't. What will the explanation do? Make you trust CC? What will make me trust them is how quickly and efficiently they can produce the rest of the boards they've been contracted to do. The sooner they finish boards, LCD cables, and video out cables, the sooner they get paid. My bet is this takes < Two Months™.


As Craig said, it took a lot of communication and physical intimidation (Trey is Hulk) to get CC to start making boards. I think all it would have taken was nubs that worked from the beginning. Or just nubs that didn't to go through multiple revisions after the final revision.


And Benji, your posts don't offend me. I understand your concern. It's that your wording and choice of questions, you ask some good ones don't get me wrong, but you also tend to ask questions that aren't really our business sometimes. What bothers me is that when people ask one good question, they don't get an answer, you ask 2 good questions, 8 bad ones, and get 10 answers regularly. I saw you asking about the Ebay auctions and that was why I asked if you preordered. I don't want to know your order #. I have some of my own that I'm concerned about and that is why I wish to not burn the bridge with CC (which I think threatening litigation would do). I would rather my board be made in the US than Taiwan as well. Jobs in America producing something are on the endangered species list. That is a story for another day.


Thanks for reading.

Have the remaining cases shipped from China yet? If not when are they due to leave? And if they have, what is their ETA? Thanks!


Chris

+1


I still fear Chinese New Year and Moon Cake