Craigs Preorder List Update


I'm quite surprised now I think of it that Craig offered a 'refund' option on the survey. Does anyone have the exact text for that option? Seems rather ill advised to offer that option without any idea how you're ever going to fund it, unless the text made that clear.
 
Couldn't we find a lawyer that would accept a "We don't pay you, but you'll get a huge part of what you manage to get from them".
If you can do that AND get the necessary information (documents etc.) from Craig, by all means, go for it.
Craig's last comment on this issue was that gears started turning (or something like this). It was in 2011.

It can take ages until something happens with lawyers (especially overseas).


I can understand why people don't trust Craig but thinking he hasn't done anything regarding CircuitCo issue is at best strange.
 
Couldn't we find a lawyer that would accept a "We don't pay you, but you'll get a huge part of what you manage to get from them".

If I remember well, I sould be quite an easy case ?
That hinges on the existence of a contract, which you can prove has been broken. If you find such a thing, by all means go ahead.
 
Couldn't we find a lawyer that would accept a "We don't pay you, but you'll get a huge part of what you manage to get from them".
If you can do that AND get the necessary information (documents etc.) from Craig, by all means, go for it.
Craig's last comment on this issue was that gears started turning (or something like this). It was in 2011.

It can take ages until something happens with lawyers (especially overseas).


I can understand why people don't trust Craig but thinking he hasn't done anything regarding CircuitCo issue is at best strange.
He hasn't done anything, as there hasn't even been a proper contract with predicted failure rates, etc.
 
Couldn't we find a lawyer that would accept a "We don't pay you, but you'll get a huge part of what you manage to get from them".
If you can do that AND get the necessary information (documents etc.) from Craig, by all means, go for it.
Craig's last comment on this issue was that gears started turning (or something like this). It was in 2011.

It can take ages until something happens with lawyers (especially overseas).


I can understand why people don't trust Craig but thinking he hasn't done anything regarding CircuitCo issue is at best strange.
He hasn't done anything, as there hasn't even been a proper contract with predicted failure rates, etc.
Thanks, that explains a lot. Nothing can be done then.
 
...


Basically, we'd need everyone to pay at least production costs to continue in a proper way...


This is a pretty hard thing to decide.
The only advice I can give is keep doing what you are doing, i.e. keep communicating with the community in your usual straightforward manner.

When you've had time to think about it (now you finally have the relevant info) just let people know what you're willing / able to do in terms of financing Craigs pre order queue.

Also try and find out what Craig is willing to do in terms of financing the cost of Pandoras for his customers.

The numbers are pretty shocking as my guess is there will be a pretty large number who did not respond to the survey / have just walked away and taken the loss. But at least you've got some concrete data to go on now.
 
He hasn't done anything, as there hasn't even been a proper contract with predicted failure rates, etc.
Anything can be a contract: a recording, a signed document, an email, even just a handshake. The purpose behind signatures on paper is proving that the agreement actually happened and that it was for what both parties thought it was. If you rely on a totally verbal agreement, you still have yourself a legal contract, but if something goes wrong it's easy enough for one party to lie about what they thought it meant, or if it even happened at all.With that in mind, didn't you say you had emails from someone at CC saying that they had reached certain milestones, but when it came time to finish it was obvious that these milestones had not been reached. The emails themselves form a legal contract of sorts, and proving they at least originated from CC would not be exceedingly difficult to a lawyer with that kind of background. Why hasn't this avenue been pursued?
 
Why hasn't this avenue been pursued?
Because there is a huge risk of losing involved. Even if you could find a lawyer who works for you pro bono or who would share any money you would receive you need money for court, to file papers etc. If worst comes to worst Craig sues, loses and has to pay all costs for him and his opponent.

Always considering, that he is situated in the UK, ED in Germandy and the PCB company in Texas.

How would you suggest this to be solved? I think everyone would be honestly grateful for ANY feassble idea...
 
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There was an idea that I talked about here a few months ago, but it wasn't noticed :

iCP and OP are completely different businesses, and technically, on one owes the preorderers anything...

Unfortunately, the Open Pandora is more and more obsolete (even if I still want mine), but the iCP's are not.

*If* the iCP2 works out, Craig could propose the remaining OP preorderers to sell them iCP2's at production costs, so that difference between the retail and the production prices of these several units would equal the OP preordering price.

The preorderers would then resell those iCP's around them.

This would be a shortfall for Craig, but it would erase the OP losses, AND, on a longer term, popularize his product.

Of course, Craig doesn't legally owe us anything since OP coulb go bankrupt, but it would clean his reputation, even if it's a bit unfair that your previous failures affect your future successes...

What do you think ?
 
He hasn't done anything, as there hasn't even been a proper contract with predicted failure rates, etc.
Anything can be a contract: a recording, a signed document, an email, even just a handshake. The purpose behind signatures on paper is proving that the agreement actually happened and that it was for what both parties thought it was. If you rely on a totally verbal agreement, you still have yourself a legal contract, but if something goes wrong it's easy enough for one party to lie about what they thought it meant, or if it even happened at all.
With that in mind, didn't you say you had emails from someone at CC saying that they had reached certain milestones, but when it came time to finish it was obvious that these milestones had not been reached. The emails themselves form a legal contract of sorts, and proving they at least originated from CC would not be exceedingly difficult to a lawyer with that kind of background. Why hasn't this avenue been pursued?
This is pure speculation but my guess is that Craig agreed to pay on delivery for working boards. From my understanding this is what did happen, i.e. Craig only paid for the working boards he received. Proving that CC have been grossly negligent would be a non trivial matter. Doubt we'll ever really get to the bottom of this unless Craig has a real change of heart in terms of communicating with his customers.
 
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Unfortunately, the Open Pandora is more and more obsolete (even if I still want mine), but the iCP's are not.


*If* the iCP2 works out, Craig could propose the remaining OP preorderers to sell them iCP2's at production costs, so that difference between the retail and the production prices of these several
Great for my students who have the latest iPhoneDroidLumia handily in their pocket.

Not so great for "yes I still have the OpenVMS server at home, and how are you?"-me who still maintains his main contacts list in a PalmOS 4 device.

But yeah, I do realize I'm maybe not primary target audience. Ignore my vote then :).

As for the Pandora being obsolete. Oh if only you knew... :-D All these obsolete comments always make me go either *hmph* or LOL depending on how much conviction the OP has :).

OK I know no-one is actually interested but whatever, here's my explanation for this view on obsoleteness:

I originally ordered the Pandora, because I intended to port POSE (Palm OS emulator) to it!

When I ordered I already knew it would be fairly trivial (I quickly created a test environment that was "close enough to be sure"). Matters like touch screen support were of course total wildcards, but hey, I never fail ;-).

I figured I could have something newer in my bag than the Sony Clie PEG T415 I had used since 2001. Even this mainly because I was worried the Palm I had carried around daily for so long might eventually break. The battery (proprietary, though still available overseas) was degrading. The backlight felt dimmer. For some strange reason it became difficult to order new 128 MB Sony MemorySticks via mail order...

The idea was to port POSE and slowly start transitioning to Linux apps where possible (notes, contacts, crypto for passwords). I liked Palm because I was able to do some development for it (fairly open environment), but Pandora would have been loads better in this regard. Most .sh scripts I often use would have worked right out of the box.

There are apps which I doubt I'd be able to get for anything other than Palm OS 4 (a payed for RUS-ENG-RUS dictionary for example), so emulation of a PALM device is essential.

That was supposed to be the main, daily use.

But I also hoped for Amiga and DOS (EGA level...) emulation "for old times' sake" and because The Pandora Can :).

We know what happened with the Pandora. I'm happy to say the Clie is still alive and kicking (though only for a few days/charge), but I have actually retired the Clie now, only two months ago. I bought a used Handera 330!-) I consider it an upgrade for several reasons. Just imagine what I'd consider the Pandora to still be!!!

So: Obsolete my...
 
Not so great for "yes I still have the OpenVMS server at home, and how are you?"-me who still maintains his main contacts list in a PalmOS 4 device.

As for the Pandora being obsolete. Oh if only you knew... :-D All these obsolete comments always make me go either *hmph* or LOL depending on how much conviction the OP has :).

I originally ordered the Pandora, because I intended to port POSE (Palm OS emulator) to it!

[...]

So: Obsolete my...
You, sir, are a man of my liking :D

(Although I never did much care about VMS, truth be told. That was my flatmate who ran VMS on microVAXen)
 
Unfortunately, the Open Pandora is more and more obsolete (even if I still want mine), but the iCP's are not.


*If* the iCP2 works out, Craig could propose the remaining OP preorderers to sell them iCP2's at production costs, so that difference between the retail and the production prices of these several
Great for my students who have the latest iPhoneDroidLumia handily in their pocket.

Not so great for "yes I still have the OpenVMS server at home, and how are you?"-me who still maintains his main contacts list in a PalmOS 4 device.

But yeah, I do realize I'm maybe not primary target audience. Ignore my vote then :).

As for the Pandora being obsolete. Oh if only you knew... :-D All these obsolete comments always make me go either *hmph* or LOL depending on how much conviction the OP has :).

OK I know no-one is actually interested but whatever, here's my explanation for this view on obsoleteness:

I originally ordered the Pandora, because I intended to port POSE (Palm OS emulator) to it!

When I ordered I already knew it would be fairly trivial (I quickly created a test environment that was "close enough to be sure"). Matters like touch screen support were of course total wildcards, but hey, I never fail ;-).

I figured I could have something newer in my bag than the Sony Clie PEG T415 I had used since 2001. Even this mainly because I was worried the Palm I had carried around daily for so long might eventually break. The battery (proprietary, though still available overseas) was degrading. The backlight felt dimmer. For some strange reason it became difficult to order new 128 MB Sony MemorySticks via mail order...

The idea was to port POSE and slowly start transitioning to Linux apps where possible (notes, contacts, crypto for passwords). I liked Palm because I was able to do some development for it (fairly open environment), but Pandora would have been loads better in this regard. Most .sh scripts I often use would have worked right out of the box.

There are apps which I doubt I'd be able to get for anything other than Palm OS 4 (a payed for RUS-ENG-RUS dictionary for example), so emulation of a PALM device is essential.

That was supposed to be the main, daily use.

But I also hoped for Amiga and DOS (EGA level...) emulation "for old times' sake" and because The Pandora Can :).

We know what happened with the Pandora. I'm happy to say the Clie is still alive and kicking (though only for a few days/charge), but I have actually retired the Clie now, only two months ago. I bought a used Handera 330!-) I consider it an upgrade for several reasons. Just imagine what I'd consider the Pandora to still be!!!

So: Obsolete my...
Well, I told I still want mine, because I'm also an old geezer who likes to do retro nerd things, because of the community and because of the Pandora's design.

But the general public doesn't care : All they are going to see is that nowadays you can get 1.6GHz Quad core android phones for 200€, with faster graphic chips and higher resolution screens.

Soon these phones will even emulate a Nintendo Wii.

The truth is that the Pandora has a much smaller public today, most people run after processing power...

That's why I would really like to discuss this idea to resell iCP's, it could be an option to clear a part of the queue...
 
...

That's why I would really like to discuss this idea to resell iCP's, it could be an option to clear a part of the queue...
How much profit do you imagine would be made by an individual selling each iCP2 that they had bought at cost from Craig? No real idea myself but my gut feel says it would be nowhere near enough to make this a practical suggestion.
 
I originally ordered the Pandora, because I intended to port POSE (Palm OS emulator) to it!
Does that stuff even exist anymore? Back when it was still possible, I downloaded a binary package of GarnetVM from the ACCESS web site (which kind of works on the Pandora), but I haven't seen anything about POSE for a decade or so.

Don't see the Pandora as obsolete either. There still is nothing like it - yes, tablets and ultrabooks are running circles around it (even in terms of battery life nowadays), but both are a completely different form factor.
 
Also try and find out what Craig is willing to do in terms of financing the cost of Pandoras for his customers.

The numbers are pretty shocking as my guess is there will be a pretty large number who did not respond to the survey / have just walked away and taken the loss. But at least you've got some concrete data to go on now.
This is actually an idea worth thinking about... if ED reaches the choice to give the preorders a harsh realistic choice.. He's going to have to tell them Craig let them down.. and Craig might be willing to negotiate something with him instead and offer the preoders a deal.

Yes. craig could sweeten the deal and actually make good with his preorders.. but imagine having to pay for 400~ ICP2s... that's a lot of money even at cost

Id rather him give ED money.. for every $400, the Pandora would be a $1 cheaper :D hahahahahahaha
 
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Let's take a look how many Pandoras need to be funded: 149x 1GHz Pandora    (= 42.000 EUR) 130x Rebirth Pandora (= 35.000 EUR) Total: 77.000 EUR
 

Might as well just pay the extra 7.000 and upgrade all of them.. it's only another 20% of the rebirth ;)
 
If CircuitCo wouldn't have had these issues with the production (which lead to a loss of 300K EUR in the first place), then everything would've been fine by now.
This is pure speculation but my guess is that Craig agreed to pay on delivery for working boards. From my understanding this is what did happen, i.e. Craig only paid for the working boards he received.
Which one of these quotes is true? If it's the second one, 300K could not have been lost.
If it's the first one, why have they not been sued? Is there a good legal reason or just Craig having "better things to do"?

Looks to me like suing CC for at least partial damages may be the only way to get out of the hole.
 
I would guess it's because Craig charged Circuit Co to produce xK boards - with nothing about them being working boards or anything. But that's just my guess, based on being the only thing I can think of that makes any sense.
 
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