EvilDragon's Pre-Order Survey Thread


worldcitizen

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I think it might be time to stop feeding the trolls, and let them rant and waah waah their lives away in their own ignorance.


Or maybe someone should just post a FAQ and link to that every time we get a trog.
Just a short question:

Did you already get your device and how much did you pay in the end?
 

WizardStan

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Did you already get your device and how much did you pay in the end?
I originally ordered from Craig, just like you, for $330. When I realized the odds of him delivering was getting smaller I accepted the upgrade option from EvilDragon for about $400. I didn't want to pay again, and certainly not more than I did originally, but I accepted that Craig had dropped the ball, Craig had screwed me over, and that my money was more than likely gone forever. The money I had paid was not being held for ransom, to be deemed useless unless I paid more, IT WAS ALREADY GONE. The "upgrade" is not extortion being held against you: pay more or your money is gone. I realized what it took Craig over a year to realize himself: the money you paid does not exist anymore, it is not being held for ransom because it is gone. EvilDragon is not taking your original money and expecting an additional payment to complete the sale, he never received your money either and is offering to sell you a brand new console at a discounted price.
 

worldcitizen

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Did you already get your device and how much did you pay in the end?
I originally ordered from Craig, just like you, for $330. When I realized the odds of him delivering was getting smaller I accepted the upgrade option from EvilDragon for about $400. I didn't want to pay again, and certainly not more than I did originally, but I accepted that Craig had dropped the ball, Craig had screwed me over, and that my money was more than likely gone forever. The money I had paid was not being held for ransom, to be deemed useless unless I paid more, IT WAS ALREADY GONE. The "upgrade" is not extortion being held against you: pay more or your money is gone. I realized what it took Craig over a year to realize himself: the money you paid does not exist anymore, it is not being held for ransom because it is gone. EvilDragon is not taking your original money and expecting an additional payment to complete the sale, he never received your money either and is offering to sell you a brand new console at a discounted price.
A question did you pay $400 on top of the $330 you've already paid or did you pay $400 in total?

I'm sorry but I've ordered something via openpandora.org they still exist. I'm sorry but I don't care if it's Craig or ED.

I think that is also how the German law will see it if someone will bring openpandora to justice.
 

EvilDragon

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OpenPandora.org never directly sold Pandoras. There were links to different shops, one of them was Craigs shop, and one was GP2X.de.

Craig made the shop page look the same as the op.org page and he probably never meant the company you ordered from (which is illegal, btw), but the main homepage always linked to shops.
 

WizardStan

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A question did you pay $400 on top of the $330 you've already paid or did you pay $400 in total?
That was $400 in addition to what was already paid. EvilDragon was selling them at-cost to those that had been screwed by Craig: $70 is no where near what it costs to manufacture.As I understand, he is now selling them below cost, with the difference being made up in community donations.

I'm sorry but I've ordered something via openpandora.org they still exist.
No you didn't, you ordered from gbax.com. You may have started at openpandora.org but that's just a hub where you choose the store to order from, and for better or worse you ordered from gbax. EvilDragon, owner of dragonbox.de, is no more responsible for your order than Nintendo is.
 

Klumpen

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Regarding lordpork: He had time to insult us and repeat again and again, what utter nonsense we are writing and that he will not read it,

but has no time to just f*cking read?!

And as I see, King Ignorance already has an heir to the throne...

We have the same explanations about the fact, that this is no shop but a board which linked to shops and that different companies are involved because of this etc.. etc.. etc...

multiple times in the last pages now and always for the same people. It's a waste of time, just let them sue and be corrected by the officials, if they refuse to be corrected by us.

People which react this way to people that just want to help them for free make me sick.

I've got better things to do and I even paid more for my Pandora than they would have to even after getting screwed by gbax.com/Craig Rothwell.

These people are just making it easy for themselfs by ranting at random people that got screwed by the exact same guy/company because getting a hold of the one that screwed them would involve real work.
 
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badfrog

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Are the classics still getting made?  I'd guess I'd rather pay 100EU than 300EU to finally get my preorder.
 

RubiX

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So what is final word with those of us who have got shafted by unknowingly pre-ordering from the wrong side of things?

Not to take my anger out on E.D , but the Pandora was your vision to get things actually moving to create the device.    This device exists because of you.

But now you are still fulfilling those who only sent payment to you, and the device you created with help from the other guy means the rest of us who unknowingly paid into the wrong side are left in the dark (unless we want to pay even more money again?)

Now I do respect your hard work through the years on the whole thing, but please see it from our side that im sure 100% of us on this 'wrong side'  had no clue when pre-ordereing that we were actually playing a risk game with our money by ordering from this other side.   

So you knew you had no obligation to help him out with clearing his queue or refund if things went bad? That's great.. We would have no knowledge of this whatsoever.    If I knew this from the start, then I would have went with the guy who did all the real work to feel safe.  YOU.

Everything from seeing people jump the queue after many years of waiting, and end at the complete bottom with nothing....   All I can say is I feel very very used.

Please do the right thing from the device you created and find a way to pay us back.

Thank you.
 
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EvilDragon

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Nothing has changed, the upgrades are still possible, with the help of the community.

However, the Pandora was not my vision. I have to give that credit to Craig.

He pulled me in. I am not a risky person, I let him confirm to me multiple times in 2008 that the Pandora is ready for production and nothing can go wrong.

Back then, I believed him, even though I didn't even know the status myself.

He pulled me into the whole story (as he knew the community likes me, and that will get him more preorders), but until 2010, I wasn't really involved in anything that had to do with the production, and I certainly didn't have ANY decisions to make.

I basically was just the voice for the community... until I took over, as I didn't want to see it die.

Of all people involved, I'm the one that had the least to do with the idea, development or production at first.
 

WizardStan

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Please do the right thing from the device you created and find a way to pay us back.
What do you think he's trying to do? That's why the upgrade option exists, that's why he's funneling his own profits into shipping out units, that's why the community is sending donations.You don't have to upgrade, you can continue to wait and hope that he makes enough profit or enough donations come in that he can send you one, but you'll get one faster if you agree to pay the upgrade cost.

It should be noted that "upgrade" is really a bad name for the process. You aren't paying more money to get a Pandora, the money you originally paid is gone. To EvilDragon, this is the first time you are giving him money: he is willing to sell you a Pandora with improved spec of what you originally ordered for below production cost. It isn't paying more for an upgrade, it is buying an improved version for a discounted price.

im sure 100% of us on this 'wrong side'  had no clue when pre-ordereing that we were actually playing a risk game with our money by ordering from this other side.
Hindsight is 20/20. No one had any idea that Craig would mismanage his business so much. It could have just as easily gone the other way, Craig could have been successful and EvilDragon have trouble making ends meet. Of course whenever you pre-order something there's an expected risk: until you have the device in your hand it should be understood that terrible things can (and sometimes do) happen that prevent it from being completed: it's unfortunate, but it should not be a complete shock.There was no "wrong side" when you pre-ordered, it has simply happened that you were unfortunate enough to order from a store that went out of business before it could deliver, knowingly or not. If it had fallen the other way, you'd have a Pandora and a completely different set of users would be expecting Craig to pay up for EvilDragon's mistakes. Or they could have both given up long ago and absolutely no one would have gotten anything.
 

andmaz777

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I am not defending ED because there is no reason to - he is an awesome guy who is giving up his own profits and time to help Craig's pre orders - somehow people think he has a legal obligation to do this despite numerous explanations - I preordered from Craig and ED has no legal obligation to sort out any issues I may have but know he will if necessary.


This is Craig's baby 100% and without him there would be no device so we have to - that said Craig does not make the best decisions when things go wrong and that has cost a lot of money and the problems we have today!


Rather than moan at the person and community actually helping to sort the mess, why not direct this to Craig - there is an address on his website so you can either write or go and discuss in person.


We have all suffered through this having to wait years for something paid for in 2008 but that was the nature of the project - I would like to see the full breakdown and proof of where all the money went but having followed this since the first discussions I have no doubt that everything is above board but just mismanaged - especially how Craig dealt with RMAs compared to ED. Personally I never expected a perfect product and mine is not 100% and worse than some who have returned - it works and is awesome at emulation and that is all that matters to me!
 

MrConfusion

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But now you are still fulfilling those who only sent payment to you, and the device you created with help from the other guy
...

So you knew you had no obligation to help him out with clearing his queue or refund if things went bad?

...

If I knew this from the start, then I would have went with the guy who did all the real work to feel safe.  YOU.
Corrections AFAIK:

ED's role is as he said above, but to further clarify this: Craig was originally the manufacturer, ED was only supposed to buy and resell units from Craig. Originally ED was the retailer, not the supplier of stock. Craig was the supplier.

...

It was worse than what you wrote: ED knew that if things went bad, he could not clear his queue or even easily pay his refund requests. He took a big risk initially. He was now at the mercy of the supplier (i.e. Craig) to whom he had given the preorder money.

...

As you probably realized now: You did go with the guy who "did all the work": Craig. It's just that he totally ****ed up that work and managed to burn all the preorder money during that act.

And that is when ED stepped in. Craig was ready to call it quits. ED figured things could still be salvaged with changes to manufacturing management and what essentially amounts to a loan ED got from investors. That happened long after the preorders had been made and all preorder money had been burned by Craig already. So then ED started to manage the manufacturing. All the threads were moved from Craig's hands to ED, who then took a big sledgehammer and started hammering some sense into the mess Craig had left.

It should also be pointed out, that Craig resumed making a mess even after this: Major messes were:

He introduced the 1GHz preorder idea.

He also mismanaged his customerrecords so that not even he had any idea how many customers there even are, much less what they initially ordered.

Because of this latter mess ED's loan from the investors turned out to be undersized. You cannot blame this on ED either. He based his calculations on data Craig gave him. I am sure ED's calculations were accurate for the data he was given by Craig, or the investors would simply have said "forget about it". Investors tend to be pretty good at reviewing such things. This might also be why Craig does not like investors; he obviously does not want to be "responsible" to people who probably know about funding and about getting a return for their investment.

It could even be said that the horse you (and I, for that matter, since I ordered from Craig too and never got a unit from him!) bet on when ordering, whether "forced" or not, looked like the winning horse at the time. In theory, as the manufacturer, Craig could have put your Pandora into the mailbox a few days earlier than ED, had things turned out right...
 

ponlork

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OpenPandora.org never directly sold Pandoras. There were links to different shops, one of them was Craigs shop, and one was GP2X.de.
Craig made the shop page look the same as the op.org page and he probably never meant the company you ordered from (which is illegal, btw), but the main homepage always linked to shops.

 

When I pre-ordered, I had to place a order via email:

"If you are from UK, within the EU or worldwide, you can order from sales@openpandora.org "

https://web.archive.org/web/20110102221744/http://openpandora.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=97&Itemid=39&lang=en

I appreciate your honesty and I believe you are a honorable and noble man, but can you really blame a customer who had absolutely nothing to do with the internal affairs, someone who just came to the website, saw a nice looking product and decided to place a order. Then 3-4 years later we're given emails that Open Pandora is dead and the company has no assets. I mean how are we supposed to feel? Then only to be subjected to being called trolls and idiots when we speak on it. No matter how you look at it, the customer is always right. I wasn't that concerned about the money, yes it sucks to lose out on a lot of money, but it's not that bad. I've seen people get screwed over worst. I'm more upset that I waited over 3 years for nothing, and at how everybody is so jaded and condescending towards the consumer like it's somehow our fault.
 
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ZXDunny

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I appreciate your honesty and I believe you are a honorable and noble man, but can you really blame a customer who had absolutely nothing to do with the internal affairs, someone who just came to the website, saw a nice looking product and decided to place a order. Then 3-4 years later we're given emails that Open Pandora is dead and the company has no assets. I mean how are we supposed to feel?
Head over to the iCP2 kickstarter forums and ask them, they probably feel quite similar :)

D.
 

RubiX

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Ok there are things I have been corrected on and thought I knew what was going on from the start, which I can see I did not.  So thanks for the info there.

Im sure the $500 or so you guys paid is not as big a deal if you have nice paying jobs, than to people who save money up from birthdays and small jobs for people.

If I could have made paychecks each week I'm sure I wouldnt be feeling a big hit like it seems quite a lot of you seem to be just accepting it easily.
 

comradekingu

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OpenPandora.org never directly sold Pandoras. There were links to different shops, one of them was Craigs shop, and one was GP2X.de.


Craig made the shop page look the same as the op.org page and he probably never meant the company you ordered from (which is illegal, btw), but the main homepage always linked to shops.
 
When I pre-ordered, I had to place a order via email:

"If you are from UK, within the EU or worldwide, you can order from

 sales@openpandora.org "

https://web.archive.org/web/20110102221744/http://openpandora.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=97&Itemid=39&lang=en


I appreciate your honesty and I believe you are a honorable and noble man, but can you really blame a customer who had absolutely nothing to do with the internal affairs, someone who just came to the website, saw a nice looking product and decided to place a order. Then 3-4 years later we're given emails that Open Pandora is dead and the company has no assets. I mean how are we supposed to feel? Then only to be subjected to being called trolls and idiots when we speak on it. No matter how you look at it, the customer is always right. I wasn't that concerned about the money, yes it sucks to lose out on a lot of money, but it's not that bad. I've seen people get screwed over worst. I'm more upset that I waited over 3 years for nothing, and at how everybody is so jaded and condescending towards the consumer like it's somehow our fault.
Nobody is blaming you. Openpandora is not dead. Craigs company is. The customer is always right, but you arent EDs customer, which puts some limits on how far he can stretch to help you. He is doing the most he possibly can, and then some.
 
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Klumpen

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Ok there are things I have been corrected on and thought I knew what was going on from the start, which I can see I did not.  So thanks for the info there.

Im sure the $500 or so you guys paid is not as big a deal if you have nice paying jobs, than to people who save money up from birthdays and small jobs for people.

If I could have made paychecks each week I'm sure I wouldnt be feeling a big hit like it seems quite a lot of you seem to be just accepting it easily.
Dude, I earn 560€ per month, most of it goes for the cheapest rent and I have already climbed the social ladder up a lot regarding to where I came from. This has nothing to do with my sympathies and my perspective regarding the situation here.

This is about fair judgement.
 
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moxie

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Ok there are things I have been corrected on and thought I knew what was going on from the start, which I can see I did not.  So thanks for the info there.

Im sure the $500 or so you guys paid is not as big a deal if you have nice paying jobs, than to people who save money up from birthdays and small jobs for people.

If I could have made paychecks each week I'm sure I wouldnt be feeling a big hit like it seems quite a lot of you seem to be just accepting it easily.
Well, in all honesty, those of us who has stuck around the forums have had a year or two in which to rant, rave and rage. If we sound all laidback now, it is because we've had plenty time to resign to the facts.
 

mcobit

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Moxie has a good point.


They are a bit late to the party. The people they expect to behave differently than they do right now already did so, learned about the situation and accepted it or are trying to help others now that have similar problems.


The only reason why not everybody is raging here is that they had plenty of time to check all options. New people might rage at first but hopefully will see that what others here tell them is not with bad intention.
 
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