Here Is What Will Be Happening.


I don't know the exact situation, but I also agree that some of the flaws are due to them being only sample cases. The lack of silk-screening seems to point to that.
That being said, OP should do whatever they feel is best, but unfortunately it's kind of a catch-22 decision.
 
I have no problem at all getting a rough case, assuming a new case does not cost more than $20 when they are finally done.
 
I work in Quality Assurance (software) and I've often been in the position that MWeston's in right now - getting something really late and having the final say whether to signoff on it before it goes out. There's very often a lot of pressure to give that signoff because it's the last step before getting everything finished and it's hard to put the brakes on when everyone else is gearing up for production.

Sending the case to MWeston to green-light it is not just a formality, or production would have started already. For me the simple view is that if he is not happy with it, then it's not ready and there is no point US reviewing pictures of it.

Furthermore, and this is where I'm sure people will disagree with me, I don't think that OP should be accepting ANY cases at a quality that does not pass their tests. It sends a message to the case MFs that what they have done is good enough. There are clearly communication difficulties already without further confusing it. The whole point of a sample is as a benchmark against which all the future production models can be compared - you just can't trust that any of the production models will be any good until they can produce at least one sample case that MWeston likes.

Personally I think it's time to send in Fatih (and translator) to sit on site until something that can be green-lit comes off the line. Maybe, maybe just having them there to say "once more with the finishing and silk-screening that I asked for" would be enough...

a
 
aliking said:
Personally I think it's time to send in Fatih (and translator) to sit on site until something that can be green-lit comes off the line. Maybe, maybe just having them there to say "once more with the finishing and silk-screening that I asked for" would be enough...
Agreed.
 
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davidgro said:
I've seen a lot of numbers like 500, 1000, 2000, and so on but in my opinion the best way to do this has already been suggested: e-mail Every preorderer with the question of wait-or-not. Then those who say not can all get cases made immediately and those who want to wait or don't answer will get theirs later, regardless of how many people that is. (Mainly of course I say this because I don't want to wait but am almost certainly not in the first 500, 1000, or 2000 orders. I probably wouldn't even get a better case later, to me this is a pocket device and the exterior has only one important job: protect and hold together the interior. Silksceening however would be nice so I can see which LEDs are what, etc.)


+1. I am honestly not that worried about the crack in the case. That is the *ONLY* flaw I've seen. I sincerely doubt all cases will resemble that. And even the 3rd revision case does look like that across the board, I'll still be happy. At this point I would like to see something for my money. The longer we wait, the further obsolete the Pandora is going to get.

Not to mention Mweston already had Texas build 1000 populated boards. Though, I hope the Chinese factory is willing to play ball here. Because I've heard that 10,000 is the smallest run they'd do.

Also please realize people. If OP chooses to do another revision altogether, February is gone. They won't really start production until March. Their track record suggests they won't be that speedy in issuing out a 4th revision, plus they already have our money. So we are in the back of the line in priority. Come July new devices will be coming out with Cortex A9 chips. This month MS is showing off ZunePhone which more than likely will require Tegra2.

Let's have some faith that this sample was used with recycled plastic's and is not evidence of what *all* the cases will look like.

@aliking

If they could arrange what you are suggesting, I'd be willing to wait for a 4th revision. But I have my doubts that the Chinese Factory would let such a small customer come in and start demanding things.
 
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I don't see any real show-stopping issues. Perhaps the dent in the bottom part, right underneath the crack in the hinge, but I can live with that.

The case clearly didn't get its finish, and I guess they made it with recycled pellets. Why did they do that? probably just so that they could get it out a few days earlier, so that more cases can be made before the Chinese new year...

There's also quite a lot of damage to the case. lots of scratches, and that crack in the hinge. Most of it is probably just transit damage. They're just test-parts, so I guess they didn't deem it necessary to package it up properly. Takes time as well...
That crack in the hinge might be a weak spot, so it might warrant some attention though.

And there's some discoloration, especially in the middle of the lid, where the plastic's thinner. I doubt any more test runs won't help here, and only a really real mass-production run would be conclusive...

There hasn't been any way to test the silk-screening though...

So, I'd say: fly off to China, get MP started if they're "confident" those few issues won't be present on the final, test the silk-screening, and do QA right there yourself.
 
Laurencevde said:
I don't see any real show-stopping issues. Perhaps the dent in the bottom part, right underneath the crack in the hinge, but I can live with that.

The case clearly didn't get its finish, and I guess they made it with recycled pellets. Why did they do that? probably just so that they could get it out a few days earlier, so that more cases can be made before the Chinese new year...

There's also quite a lot of damage to the case. lots of scratches, and that crack in the hinge. Most of it is probably just transit damage. They're just test-parts, so I guess they didn't deem it necessary to package it up properly. Takes time as well...
That crack in the hinge might be a weak spot, so it might warrant some attention though.

And there's some discoloration, especially in the middle of the lid, where the plastic's thinner. I doubt any more test runs won't help here, and only a really real mass-production run would be conclusive...

There hasn't been any way to test the silk-screening though...

So, I'd say: fly off to China, get MP started if they're "confident" those few issues won't be present on the final, test the silk-screening, and do QA right there yourself.

Quoted for extreme emphasis
 
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Wow. I'm impressed that MWeston's been reading this thread! It's a long one.

I have nothing new, just wanted to chime in my agreement with various sentiments already well-expressed.

I, too, wonder if this factory is going to do us any better. (The crack is a non-issue: there's no way they think that's acceptable.) Perhaps they thought these were "perfect" in terms of the fit? Which Michaels seems to be suggesting they pretty much are. So perhaps that's all these samples were meant to demonstrate, despite requests to the contrary.

I agree with the sentiment expressed many pages ago that it's kinda' sad OP has expressed their disappointments: 3/4 of us might not have thought twice upon receiving a slightly imperfect case -- but now we'll be looking.

I won't whine about OP's decision either way: I sent my money in a LONG time ago in an act of trust. That trust remains and I'm grateful they're looking out for me & wanting everything to be as excellent as possible. If they decide the current cases are "good enough" then I'll be satisfied. If they decide to work on them some more... it's all part of the process, I guess. I hear and sympathize with MWeston's frustration at the disservice this case is to his efforts.

I'm definitely OK with receiving cases as they are.
 
Judging by the length of this thread, I'd say this picture is worth more than 1000 words:
abortretryignore.png
 
but if you offer replacements later how would we use them, would we take apart our pandora, possibly voiding warranty and breaking device because of inexperience with taking apart devices) or would we send the pandora back.

Personally I want the case to be 100% for functionally (but if the color looks a little off and i get it 3 to 6 months sooner then that would be good)


At this point I have no idea what is best or what should be done

I guess when i get my pandora i could always make a case out of dry ice that would look awesome
 
It is time to shit or get off the pot. Check to make sure the issues around the hinge are not going to exist in the final run, then get them made. It is well over a year late already and the cases look awesome, aside from the aforementioned hinge stuff. Lets go already.
 
j.pickens said:
Its time to LIGHT THIS CANDLE!
Make all 10000 cases, go pick up the molds, and MP the Pandoras already!

why they have to pick up the moulds?

from i saw and suggested its not a mould fault but rather a bad injection parameter/run/operator/damaged machine
 
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Ok, all caught up on the thread, seen the cases and NOW I feel I can give a reasoned opinion on the state of the cases. To begin, I'm pretty sure MWeston has more cases he could show, and that he didn't choose the best of the bunch just so he could show us the imperfections, the worst case case as it were. I took that into consideration when forming my opinion.

First off, the discolouration is obvious this time. The second revision I didn't notice any problems of colour even after it was pointed out to me. This time, flecks and smudges are blatant, and it is covered in scratches that weren't there on the second revision case. One can only hope that it was made with poor quality plastic. Someone screwed up big time with the communication on this one, whether it is recycled plastic or not. It could have been OpenPandora who wasn't clear on what they wanted, or the factory that forgot or cut corners or something, hard to say for certain which. This is something to consider.

Second, the rough edges; keep one thing in mind when looking at them: we are really, really zoomed in. 13:2 on my screen, more or less. Most of the irregularities at this scale look a little more than 1 mm on my screen, say 1.5 mm. That makes them about 3/13ths at largest on the final product: less than a quarter of a mm discrepancy. I look close at my DS lite and cell phones and I'm noticing that similar rough edges occasionally crop up on them as well. This is not to say "if it's good enough for other companies, it's good enough for us" because there are a few more of these rough edges on the Pandora that I can see than on my DS and phones. What it is to say is that maybe there's a reason they exist even on big name products: you simply can't avoid them 100%. Remember too, MWeston specifically set out to find flaws, and once the pictures were posted, so were we. When you try to find a flaw, you will find a flaw, even if it's only 3/13ths of a mm in size. Final opinion on these rough edges: too small, no one will notice them unless they are pointed out or you're specifically looking for something to be wrong, and may be unavoidable in total, all as demonstrated by other major companies manufacturing.

Third, the hinge crack. I'm stepping outside the realm of what is known and inserting some supposition, so this may be revisited in the not so distant future. My assumption is that the crack is not a natural thing, that something specifically happened to cause it in this instance and MWeston is using it as a "worst case" case. I believe so because I don't think they would ever consider sending out a case with a crack in it to a user, and Craigix said they were considering using some of these cases as final units, therefore at least some of the cases must not have this crack in it. It obviously wasn't caused by being screwed together too tightly or anything like that, as they aren't screwed together, simply fitted. I withhold final judgment on this but will, for the time being, assume it was an unfortunate accident that caused this one case to be cracked as it is.

Lack of silkscreen: very big problem, since part of this 3rd revision was supposed to be ensuring the silkscreen was lined up properly. Again, someone screwed up, and given they were on the second revision I definitely don't think it was OpenPandora on this one. It's obvious the silk screening should have been there, and the mould factory knew it, but they didn't do it for some reason.

The dent on the back of the case is about the worst thing I can see. It doesn't look accidental, like the hinge, it looks as if it is actually the result of the moulding process. It could still be a one off accident, just like the hinge crack. I'm hoping it is, but hope doesn't pay the bills anymore.

The gap between top and bottom of the cases is nothing in my mind. They look like they'll sit pretty flush when screwed together. I'm happy with that much. The only place they don't look flush is, again, back of the hinge where the crack is. It separates a bit from one side to the other. On my screen, it's about 3mm, which makes it about 6/13ths separation from one side to the other: half a mm difference. This IS noticeable if you are at least somewhat conscious of it. My DS has a similar separation, and now that I've seen it I can't unsee it. So in my opinion, it's really too small to notice on what would be a final console unless you were looking for it, similar to the rough edges mentioned above; unlike the rough edges, however, once you're aware of it, it'd be harder to ignore. This may also be something to take into consideration.

Summary: if it were just the rough edges, I would say go for it. Those rough edges always exist in a machine process, but they're really so small you don't notice them unless you're looking for them, and they "disappear" once you're not paying attention to them. I'm sure a person with a hand sander could make them go away, but a machine can't, so there's no point in worrying over them. The smudges on the case do not concern me, but the scratches do. Assuming it can be established why a brand new product is so scratched up and how it can be avoided, I'd say go for it. The hinge crack and the dent on the case below it are the two primary concerns: are they accidental, or the result of the mould? For these alone I would reject them.

Conclusion: I would not like this particular case that we have been shown because of obviously low quality plastic, a crack, and a dent. Until we know the status of the plastic, and what caused the crack and dent (and if they're consistent or not) I refuse to form a full opinion on whether I think the moulds should be accepted or we go back to waiting.
 
Mr.Confuzed said:
Judging by the length of this thread, I'd say this picture is worth more than 1000 words:
abortretryignore.png

LOL at the pic!

Abort: Should we get refund and buy another console?
Retry: Let OP try to get a better case done, another 2 months (TM)?
Ignore: Take the "imperfect" cases?
 
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What kind of a bullshit contract did you guys make with the Chinese charlatans? There should be explicit conditions in the contract regarding delays like this. Please note that the cases were claimed to be ready by mid-September.
 
We can only hope that the flaws are due almost exclusively to plastic. I would be satisfied with a 'flawed' case in most circumstances, but experience with the Nintendo DS and broken hinges has me scared. I want a case that will not fail for a long time, even if it means waiting another "two months."
So, if the case mould is flawed, I think we should wait. Period. However, if the only problems are port alignments and finish, a batch large enough to see real results could be purchased (I'm thinking the 500 mentioned in various threads, but if it takes 1000+, my point is moot,) and those who don't mind an 'imperfect' case could receive the results. With this batch, judgment could be made about further development.

tl;dr I don't WANT a Pandora until the case is structurally near perfect, but I'm fine if it's just the finish and ports.
 
fiori_musicali said:
What kind of a bullshit contract did you guys make with the Chinese charlatans? There should be explicit conditions in the contract regarding delays like this. Please note that the cases were claimed to be ready by mid-September.
and again it goes.

they just paid it all so i bet theres no way to rush up thing and not hurting the quality.

also, i've seen a lot of serious contracts concessions and up worst than this, at least both party are still running and working.
 
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OK, lets just cut to the chase. These cases are worse than the 2nd revision.

I just deleted the next 40 lines of this message before posting it. Nothing I can say is going to help.
 
fiori_musicali said:
What kind of a bullshit contract did you guys make with the Chinese charlatans? There should be explicit conditions in the contract regarding delays like this. Please note that the cases were claimed to be ready by mid-September.

I have not yet commented on the state of the delays as I myself only ordered in November. However, this statement has prompted me to. I am not an expert in pretty much anything - most of my knowledge is programming embedded systems. But part of my day job is (unfortunately) sales. Sales, and project estimates and managing my team of engineers. I would not say I am a very experienced individual. But I'm 27, have a master's degree in electrical engineering and am responsible for making sure my work and the work of my team gets done on time. I am broadcasting my credentials here because of what I'm about to say.

There is no freaking way the arrangement OpenPandora has with this company is in any way professional. It is inconceivable that the delays that have occurred are tolerable. This last revision simply confirms what I believe many have suspected. These people are either crooks or seriously incompetent. Either way, OP should not be doing business with them and should demand their money returned. Indeed, what kind of bullshit company signs a contract without any penalty for missing dates? Especially over a YEAR later. That is simply insane, and the companies I have done business with simply wouldn't stand for it. I understand this thing is so far along in the development process and is obviously WAY behind schedule, but OP needs to MAN UP and put someone in China to freaking babysit these people until they get it right. It has simply gone on long enough. The mold company has proven they can't make the cases OP needs. The only choice is to get someone over there or find another company. I see no other way these people who have pre-ordered can get a quality product, not to mention those that will order in the future that will not be nearly as tolerant of things such as cracks in the casing.

Also, why did OP give them the money up front? Isn't the rule of thumb (especially when dealing with untrustworthy parties) cash on delivery? You get the cash when you freaking do your job. They have not. And they have nothing to lose by taking as long as they please to finish this - if they're even capable. I know OP is just a bunch of guys, but it's smart business to ensure that there are steep penalties for failing to meet the terms of a contract. I seriously can't even fathom how they only recently started working with someone who speaks Chinese. Do they think more than "two months" ahead - ever?!
 
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